Bare Minimum Moves.

[jiveoholic]

Firstly - I agree with the fact that ladies would rather have 8 moves well performed than 58 poorly executed. However...you will soon find that you will get bored yourself and as you go along to jive evenings you will naturally pick up moves as you need them.

Secondly - trying to answer your initial question - There are an infinite number of moves, if you consider all variations and combinations. HOWEVER...if you consider all those "features" in moves that are truly different (eg butterfly, hand clicks, teapots etc) and discount combinations of moves (eg armjive nelson basket), then my latest estimate is that there are hardly more than 100, if that.

I have listed these diagramatically - see www.jiveoholic.org.uk/jivemap.asp

If you hover over each name, it gives an idea of what it is about, if you click, you get a full description.

This is just in draft at the moment. Any contributions/corrections welcome. I like to think that this provides a "good diet"!

[michael]

Well done and thank you Jiveoholic for producing such a great wee map reference. I shall print it out and take some spare with me to give to others when going to classes.

I printed out some 300 dance moves from a web site but they are not much use to me unless i see the actual moves. Your map and the point click and explain features might just possibly help in understanding just what is being explained in the moves database.

Please let us all know when you have finished the map as it is already impressive in Draft.

PS Surely this is a must post in the beginner section as it would particularly help enormously to those just starting

[jiveoholic]

Originally posted by michael

Please let us all know when you have finished the map as it is already impressive in Draft.

Glad you like it....its the first positive responce I have had!..normally I just get some pulled faces thinking that I am turning a fun activity into something a scientist would use at work(!).

Its in draft form until I draw some teapots and trains and butterflies and octopuses (or is that octopii!) - hopefully this week. I shall then offer a pdf download and maybe email a friend etc as it only just fits on A4 and browsers are not very clever about not printing over two pages!

[Gadget]

I like the concept - inspiring. I thought the execution is a bit fuzzy though; I found it quite hard to identify the arrow's targets and the 'intimate' moves were a bit scarce; perhaps the closer moves should go towards the inside, and the arms-length moves further out?
Dunno - it's your map. (and I have no idea about half of the moves... I'll need to look up your site )

BTW Thinking again on what Michael was saying about getting from one basic move to another, I can only think on six ways:[list=1][*]Return - keeps same hand, but can be used in conjunction with a hand swap or collect/release[*]Hand Swap - simply transferring the lady's hand from one to another[*]Release/Collect - droping one hand from a two hand hold, or collecting a hand into one.[*]Slide - placing the lady's hand(s) on point A of your body and collecting it again at point B[*]Free Spin - sending the lady into a spin.[*]Wrap/Unwrap - taking the lady to your side, or yourself to your lady's side[/list=1]
With these "joining moves", you should be able to connect any one move to another.

[jiveoholic]

Originally posted by Gadget
I like the concept - inspiring. I thought the execution is a bit fuzzy though; I found it quite hard to identify the arrow's targets and the 'intimate' moves were a bit scarce; perhaps the closer moves should go towards the inside, and the arms-length moves further out?
Dunno - it's your map. (and I have no idea about half of the moves... I'll need to look up your site )

Good point about identifying the hyperlink areas. I know how to do it, but it involves hand writing out javascript for each hyperlink, where as the links are easy to add with drag'n'draw tools. Maybe I will find a way....

I did put intimate moves at the centre (where they belong in each man's mind!). Trouble is that the diagram was constructed to minimise crossed links. Also, what is in the heart is not so much 'moves' as 'positions'. If anyone knows any sexy move in a different bodily contortion which is commonplace, then I will add it.

I think you probably know most of the moves but not by the rather generic names I have used. Suggestiong for better naming welcome.

Thanks for the comments.

[Jon]

Originally posted by Gadget
[*]Slide - placing the lady's hand(s) on point A of your body and collecting it again at point B

Can you define where point A is? :sorry

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Jon
Can you define where point A is? :sorry

Depends on where the music takes you...

[Beowulf]

I have listed these diagramatically

Can I have a "You are here" Spot?? Or will I aks directions from First move to Butterfly only to be told "You can't get there from here" ??

Site Looks good though.

[jiveoholic]

Originally posted by Beowulf1970
Can I have a "You are here" Spot?? Or will I aks directions from First move to Butterfly only to be told "You can't get there from here" ??

Site Looks good though.

Actually, you could be anywhere! Two simple uses might be:

a) how do I get to that damn butterfly?...no I don't suggest you take a copy with you to the dance floor - you can work it out when you get home!

b) What more can I do when I keep stumbling into that first move again?

So the main idea is to start where you will around the outside (your choice!). I did originally have a ring of beginner moves at the centre, but I found that all the lines kept crossing the middle.

[Beowulf]

Originally posted by jiveoholic
how do I get to that damn butterfly?...no I don't suggest you take a copy with you to the dance floor

oh! Ok, I'll delete it off my Palm then! <g> :sorry Knowing me i'd hold the map upside down and end up doing an accordian instead of a butterfly!

[Dreadful Scathe]

i looked at the core concepts diagram ... my head exploded

[Emma]

Cool map!

Being a girl naturally I appreciate the pretty colours and the nice pictures

..and as an aspiring lead..if I were an obsessive male-type I might spend several hours memorising it. But I'm not. See above

[michael]

Picking up on comments on a particular move being mentioned elswhere but called something different. Surely we should have an official list of moves by Ceroc HQ. Free and downloadable to all Cerocers.

I personally dont think it would deprive Ceroc of any lost business by having the moves in a database. It might avoid some confusion by seeing different names for the same move elswhere?

Just a thought really??

[Gadget]

Originally posted by michael
Picking up on comments on a particular move being mentioned elswhere but called something different. Surely we should have an official list of moves by Ceroc HQ. Free and downloadable to all Cerocers.

Oooh... I'm sure that there was a discussion eariler about copyright and how 'branding' a move as a Ceroc move would make it naughty to teach the same move under the same name.
That, and the paranoia aspect that non-Ceroc teachers may steal the moves and teach Ceroc outwith the collective.

Anyway, do you really want moves with names like "Firstmove-backhander-into-reverse-yoyo-with-ladyspin" ??
{BTW I just made that up - don't blame me if you try it and get stuck in a knot }

[Beowulf]

Surely we should have an official list of moves by Ceroc HQ?

Erm..perhaps I imagined this.. but I thought there was? At least ,when I typed "CEROC BEGINNERS MOVES" into Google I found a ceroc site that mentioned a 22 move beginners check list that you get when you join up .. I take it this has stopped now??

(off topic.. listening to a CD as I type this and I've noticed that the two kissing smilies to the left are kissing in time to the music)

[Gus]

Originally posted by Beowulf1970
Erm..perhaps I imagined this.. but I thought there was? At least ,when I typed "CEROC BEGINNERS MOVES" into Google I found a ceroc site that mentioned a 22 move beginners check list that you get when you join up .. I take it this has stopped now??

Seem to remember Ceroc Central giving out a monitoring card of the Beginners moves ... and I used something similar when I first started Ceroc Nanwtich. Blitz have something similar as part of their new members pack (not that they would use the Ceroc names for moves of course )

[Paul F]

Originally posted by Gus
Seem to remember Ceroc Central giving out a monitoring card of the Beginners moves ...

I know CerocLondon now give out 12 + laminated and binded quick reference cards each one depicting a beginner move. The cards are fully illustrated and, to be honest, look very professional.

[michael]

I think it takes about eight weeks to start to see the same beginner moves re-appearing (if not someone will correct me for sure). Since i started going more often the moves re-appear more often, so if any beginner really wants to learn quicker (and can afford to) then going to as many classes each week as possible should ensure their memory will be jogged often enough to remember the moves. Wish i had went more often!!

How often do we hear female dancers saying "that particular move" is popular!!! Suggests to me that most dancers have quite similiar moves in their dance routine? Surely not? Poll would see if it is true perhaps.

Poor wee females are stuck then to the moves the male happens to choose. perhaps the females should get together and come up with a Er.....short list of selected moves that THEY WANT us guys to learn!!!! Have i opened up a can of ...........Just thought it would be nice to give them a dance they might enjoy more, provided one can dance well enough to lead them properly etc. Logging off now (must practice)

[Yogi_Bear]

An interesting thread - though I have skipped the majority of it I haven't come across any mention of the 'First Move' as a basic modern jive or Ceroc essential. This has a lot going for it. It's one of the core beginners moves. It has lots of variations and generally they are very leadable. It's versatile and recognisable enough to allow you to dance with partners from a wide range of jive and swing styles. It's got enough beats to give you time to think what to do next. And not least, it's amomg the potentially most stylish of the beginners' modern jive moves. Come to think of it, anyone with enough experience could probably dance to a whole track using just this one move without boring either himself or his partner......!

I don't think beginners should worry unduly about right and left hand holds. Just stick to moves with left to right holds to begin with in freestyle. Learn some easy ways to change to right to right and back. If you learn Lindy Hop just about all the basic patterns are with left to righ holds.

And yes, it's surely all about not how many moves you know but style and how you respond to the music and your partner that counts.

Yogi
---------
'smarter than the avaerge bear....'

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by michael

Poor wee females are stuck then to the moves the male happens to choose. perhaps the females should get together and come up with a Er.....short list of selected moves that THEY WANT us guys to learn!!!! Have i opened up a can of ...........Just thought it would be nice to give them a dance they might enjoy more, provided one can dance well enough to lead them properly etc.

I have tried asking my partners, and they usually request moves involving footwork, a weakness of mine. Tomorrow I plan to try the Columbian and Butterfly steps. It will not be a pretty sight. It might earn someone with a video camera a bit of money.

I have also tried watching what moves women do when leading in the hope that they lead what they would like to follow. I have actually expanded my move set as a result.