Transition to intermediate class

[Connie]

I’ve done around 10 classes in the beginner review class, and the last few times I’ve started to be ever so slightly bored. So yesterday I decided to make the jump and join the big boys and girls in the intermediate class.

It was so nerve racking but I managed to get through it somehow, maybe not always exactly as it should have been done, but I think some sort of resemblance was achieved.
I owe the intermediate leads a huge thank you for helping me through the class and being so encouraging.
When we got to the free style after the intermediate class it all started to confuse me though, I seemed to have completely lost any ability I had to follow.
One of the gent told me that I was trying to anticipate what he was going to lead, instead of just following. Not sure why I was doing this.
To help me understand what I was going, he kept on doing the yoyo from the beginners and the yoyo pushspin from intermediate to show me that I wasn’t following him through the move, but trying to guess which of the variations he was doing. It was really helpful though, and “forced” me to listen/follow him.

I think I might keep to beginners in my Tuesday venue for a while, and then try and do the intermediate routine in the Thursday one. Did everyone else make a clean break from beginners to intermediate? Any advice?

[stairman]

Hi Connie if you are getting slightly bored in the review class then go to the beginner class fowllowed by tintermediate class
I have been doing the intermediate class for about 6 months and uslay find it chalinging and sometimes imposible

Staying in the beginners will not stop you trying to anticipate

More than half the followers I dance with anticipate or backlead

My experance is when I have a follower that is "relax enough just to follow" we have a better dance
Just rember you are there to enjoy yourself (not become a world champian this month)

[Lynn]

Everything you are describing is completely normal, don't worry!

When you start learning the intermediate moves you do tend to start to 'think' too much, which then means you are anticipating and not following. Don't worry about it too much, this will pass. Just try to concentrate on following and not worry too much about 'learning' the move.

And yes, it can seem like a big transition the first few weeks. You will feel more confused and maybe even that your dancing gets a bit worse, but it will get better again!

[tsh]

Not having done any normal classes as a follower, I'm not too certain about this, but I'd expect you to be making most progress from dancing freestyle. The details you seem to be looking for won't come from classes, but if you ask someone you feel is a good lead to help you with something I'm sure they'll be happy to give you some useful input.

I'm not sure that a follower can learn much about following with moves where the lead is not confident with how to make the move happen - and this is my general impression of most intermediate classes. All you will really learn in the intermediate classes is how to help the lead with something tricky (i.e. anticipate!)

Sean

[Lou]

Originally Posted by Lynn

Everything you are describing is completely normal, don't worry!

A big to everything that Lynn said.

It's particularly difficult when you're dancing with newish Leaders, too. They kind of expect you to anticipate, so it becomes a Catch-22 situation.

Seek out dancers like the one you mentioned in your post. He sounds lovely and helpful. When you dance with him (and his ilk), try to switch your conscious brain off. Also, (and I know this is really hard to begin with) try to relax & keep a good level of tension in your arm & "listen" to follow his lead. A good Leader will be helpful, and will provide a "louder" lead, that you'll start to recognise. The only thing you need to think about is maintaining that connection. Don't worry about trying to recognise the move. You're aiming to listen for each movement.

[DundeeDancer]

Originally Posted by Connie

I think I might keep to beginners in my Tuesday venue for a while, and then try and do the intermediate routine in the Thursday one. Did everyone else make a clean break from beginners to intermediate? Any advice?

I think I'm at the same stage as you connie but from a male prespective.

I'm finding the intermediate class pretty tough, it happens to quickly for me.

Saying that the review class is so slow and dull I can't face doing that either.

I plan just to hack on with the intermediate class and not pay to much attention to the people who grumble at me.

I imagine it's a difficult thing to balance out how much anticipate/reckonise a move and how much to blindly follow.

I've only learned a handful of intermediate moves and some of them seem impossible to lead unless the follower reckonises them very quickly. Moves such as the "Illusionary Spin" or "Arimjive swizzle shoulder lock walk around". They are really cool moves but unless the follower reckonises them quickly they mostly go a little wrong and that when I've been dancing with experienced followers.

Another good example of where the follower needs to anticipate is the Warlitzer, a simple move really but the follower needs to anticipate a little to put tension in her arm for the spin. This move with intermediate is easy but I tried it with a real beginner the other night her hand just flopped to the side and we just trund to face each other laughing away as it was obvious the move had failed abysmally. But that made the dance memorable as we had such a good laugh, we tried new things and it was just fun!

Over time I expect things will click more into place but in the mean time I'm just going to relax and enjoy the journey.

[johnnyman]

Making this transition is a gradual process and you should be concentrating on getting the beginners moves spot on and then adding one or two of the more intermediate moves into your repetoire. The best advice I give anybody is to relax your hands and arms and if you are turned or guided a certain way, then go that way. Your lead should be moulding the routine one move at a time.

[Minnie M]

Originally Posted by Lynn

.........When you start learning the intermediate moves you do tend to start to 'think' too much, which then means you are anticipating and not following. Don't worry about it too much, this will pass. Just try to concentrate on following and not worry too much about 'learning' the move............

excellent advice

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by DundeeDancer

Another good example of where the follower needs to anticipate is the Warlitzer, a simple move really but the follower needs to anticipate a little to put tension in her arm for the spin. This move with intermediate is easy but I tried it with a real beginner the other night her hand just flopped to the side and we just trund to face each other laughing away as it was obvious the move had failed abysmally. But that made the dance memorable as we had such a good laugh, we tried new things and it was just fun!

Over time I expect things will click more into place but in the mean time I'm just going to relax and enjoy the journey.

I disagree, the follower does not need to anticipate a wurlitzer at all, I have lead the wurlitzer thousands of times on brand new beginners and because they don't yet understand what a push spin is, they don't throw themselves into a push spin, but instead have to follow you into a flick spin.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by Jamie

I disagree, the follower does not need to anticipate a wurlitzer at all, I have lead the wurlitzer thousands of times on brand new beginners and because they don't yet understand what a push spin is, they don't throw themselves into a push spin, but instead have to follow you into a flick spin.

And I disagree and agree - although I mostly agree I agree that the Wurlitzer is completely followable. The push spin is not a nice move as is pushes the lady from shoulder height. Therefore it is not a natural follow, it is one that you have to know and think about - and that results in anticipation. My answer is to stop teaching the push spin and teach a flick-spin at waist height instead. So, it seems that Jamie and I agree on everything - except that he seems to be teaching the push spin - which I just don't teach.

[DundeeDancer]

Originally Posted by Jamie

I disagree, the follower does not need to anticipate a wurlitzer at all, I have lead the wurlitzer thousands of times on brand new beginners and because they don't yet understand what a push spin is, they don't throw themselves into a push spin, but instead have to follow you into a flick spin.

I disagree with your disagreement

I would say a follower who's never been taught the wurlitzer or for that matter a ceroc spin before if faced with those moves in freestyle would not anticipate what to do so more than likely the move would fail.

I would imagine the follower has to reckonise the move, tense the correct muscles and then shift there weight to the correct foot position and then they should pause and wait for the lead to gently throw them into the spin.

I would say both the lead and the follower need to learn the moves from there own prespective.

I've never tried to follow anyones moves yet but the thought of it seems a little scary to me I don't think it's as easy as just relaxing and following the lead I think it's a lot more skillful than that and that skill takes time to develop just like it takes time to go from leading a move, to clearly leading a move, then progressing to leading a move with style

Any comments from experienced followers?

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by DundeeDancer

I disagree with your disagreement

I would say a follower who's never been taught the wurlitzer or for that matter a ceroc spin before if faced with those moves in freestyle would not anticipate what to do so more than likely the move would fail.

I would imagine the follower has to reckonise the move, tense the correct muscles and then shift there weight to the correct foot position and then they should pause and wait for the lead to gently throw them into the spin.

I would say both the lead and the follower need to learn the moves from there own prespective.

And I disagree with your disagreement of my disagreement!

The wurlitzer is completely follow-able (if thats a word)... As I said, the wurlitzer only makes for hardwork when the follow has "learned" a push-spin.. This creates all sorts of problems, push-spins like Andy said are horrible spins, they don't allow for any preparation and leverage comes from two separate points! When the follow has learned a push-spin, the flat hand 'signal' as it were (no it's not a signal but beginner followers notice the flat handed hold and anticipate a push-spin) only registers as a push-spin in their eyes, unless the follow has more experience with intermediate and 'classic' moves.

So once again I say, the wurlitzer is a completely follow-able (is it a word? ) and only becomes complicated when the follower has learnt push-spins. IMO obviously.

[Franck]

Originally Posted by DundeeDancer

I would imagine the follower has to reckonise the move, tense the correct muscles and then shift there weight to the correct foot position and then they should pause and wait for the lead to gently throw them into the spin.

and I kind of ignore all your disagreements and change the focus!

Of course the Wurlitzer is leadable and totally followable even by a complete beginner. The trick is to stop leading the step out with the flat left hand, the flat hand is only a preparation for letting go, not a 'spin' signal as Jamie said. The better way to lead the twist out is to use your right hand (leader's right hand) to control the pivot and angle of such. That way, there is never any confusion in the follower's mind that you might be leading a pushspin or any kind of instant spin.
What you are doing with the right hand is prep'ing the spin with an opposite direction pre-lead. The fact that you flatten the hand and let go is incidental. In that way, the Wurlitzer is very similar to the Ceroc Spin, where you prep' to the right (changing from right hand to left hand hold on the wrist) to prep the clockwise spin.

[DundeeDancer]

I agree with you Jamie that the wurlitzer is a move that can be easily lead and followed.

That why I used it in this example to bring out the point that I believe ladies anticpating a move and preparing for parts of it is a good thing.

I keep hearing on this forum and in class that anticipating is a bad thing for the ladies to do but I can't help but think that is bad advice or at least confusing.

I think people are mixing up anticipating which is good thing with "jumping the gun" which is bad.

Our example of the wurlitzer is a good one as an experienced good intermediate follower will reckonise the move and will only do the expected half push-spin out and then anticipating the flick spin will prepase herself for the next part of the move.

The good intermediate follower will then stayed prepared and not "Jump the Gun" into the flick spin until the lead gives her momentum to do so.

Connie comment was
"One of the gent told me that I was trying to anticipate what he was going to lead, instead of just following. Not sure why I was doing this."

So it's a subtle but important point I think in that a good follower should be anticipating the moves but they shouldn't "jump the gun" on them.

So as "why was I doing this", well it was right for Connie to anticipate the move but maybe she was "jumping the gun" a little, instead of taking the time to reckonise the signal of the flat hand for a push spin she was just assuming it was normal yoyo so held on to the guys hand.

I imagine reckonising these signals at freestyle speed is a hard task so the followers definitley deserve lots of

[Franck]

Originally Posted by DundeeDancer

I keep hearing on this forum and in class that anticipating is a bad thing for the ladies to do but I can't help but think that is bad advice or at least confusing.

I think people are mixing up anticipating which is good thing with "jumping the gun" which is bad.

Our example of the wurlitzer is a good one as an experienced good intermediate follower will reckonise the move and will only do the expected half push-spin out and then anticipating the flick spin will prepase herself for the next part of the move.

The good intermediate follower will then stayed prepared and not "Jump the Gun" into the flick spin until the lead gives her momentum to do so.

No, anticipation is still bad, if as a result of recognizing the move the follower 'only does the expected half-pushspin out' she will potentially wreck another move, what if the leader intended for her to spin on 3rd beat? Assuming he actually led the spin, she would be wrong to anticipate a wurlitzer, even if she recognized the early pattern. There are far too any moves and variations starting in similar ways for followers to anticipate and be sure to be correct. The only way is to have good connection, be ready for any and all possible eventualities (this is where learning the patterns in a class is useful as it teaches followers where a lead might take them) and follow closely and instantaneously what is actually led rather than what their guess is...

[DundeeDancer]

Originally Posted by Franck

No, anticipation is still bad, if as a result of recognizing the move the follower 'only does the expected half-pushspin out' she will potentially wreck another move, what if the leader intended for her to spin on 3rd beat? Assuming he actually led the spin, she would be wrong to anticipate a wurlitzer, even if she recognized the early pattern. There are far too any moves and variations starting in similar ways for followers to anticipate and be sure to be correct. The only way is to have good connection, be ready for any and all possible eventualities (this is where learning the patterns in a class is useful as it teaches followers where a lead might take them) and follow closely and instantaneously what is actually led rather than what their guess is...

To be prepared for all eventualities and follow closely at an instant sounds like a really hard skill to acquire.

Sounds like something an advance follower would be doing rather than a new intermediate.

Just looked at the dictionary at the word anticipate and it's has different meanings in different contexts for what we are try to say here.
anticipate
1. to realize beforehand; foretaste or foresee: to anticipate pleasure.
2. to expect; look forward to; be sure of: to anticipate a favorable decision.
3. to perform (an action) before another has had time to act.

1&2 I expect is good for a follower, to realize roughly what the move is.
3 Is what we won't to avoid as that more like "jumping the gun" as I was describing earlier.

So Frank whats your advice to Connie then?

Could it well be that she just turns herself into a Jedi Night and "Uses the force"?

[Lynn]

As Lou has said, its not that a follower follows the 'move' but the 'lead for movement'. So if a lead starts a 'move' and the follower thinks 'I know this move' then she isn't really following the lead anymore but is going through a move. And it may not be that move, the lead may have his own variation, the lead may see a hazard and change the move part way through...

A follower follows each part of the lead through the move, so often can follow a move better if she doesn't know it, provided it is led well. This is why a follower actually develops following skills through freestyle, not through classes.

Of course becoming familiar with moves through doing intermediate classes still helps as it assists the followers in learning the 'vocab' of moves.

Most followers go through a phase of 'anticipating', so its nothing to worry about, I still do it at times (esp if I've been taxi-ing). But its good to recognise that its something to try and avoid. As well as possibly following the wrong move, it also means the leads don't learn how to clearly lead the move.

A good follower can follow moves she doesn't know.

A good leader can lead a follower in moves she doesn't know.

But it takes time to get to that stage, so neither leaders nor followers should get discouraged if they aren't there yet - lots of freestyling helps!

[DundeeDancer]

Great answer Lynn! Helped make things more clearer for me

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by DundeeDancer

I agree with you Jamie that the wurlitzer is a move that can be easily lead and followed.

I'd, um, agree. In fact, I'm not sure if any Ceroc move is unleadable - given that the follower can actually follow and understands some minor "dance vocabulary conventions".

Whenever someone's said a move is unleadable (most recently, the Columbian), it's usually because it's not being led properly.

Originally Posted by DundeeDancer

That why I used it in this example to bring out the point that I believe ladies anticpating a move and preparing for parts of it is a good thing.

I keep hearing on this forum and in class that anticipating is a bad thing for the ladies to do but I can't help but think that is bad advice or at least confusing.

To help leaders develop freestyle leading skills, followers should never anticipate. That's a "strategic" long-term principle. And anticipating followers tend to be the ones who are most painful to dance with when you try something they don't recognise.

However, it's at least arguable that, in some occasional circumstances, this principle should be abandoned temporarily for expedienct. For example, to help a leader who's simply forgotten a pattern at the stary of a class.

Originally Posted by DundeeDancer

Connie comment was
"One of the gent told me that I was trying to anticipate what he was going to lead, instead of just following. Not sure why I was doing this."

So it's a subtle but important point I think in that a good follower should be anticipating the moves but they shouldn't "jump the gun" on them.

Why?

If a follower is following, and a leader is leading, no move should be a surprise - it's all a flowing conversation, flowing naturally along. Trying to work out what your partner is going to "say" beforehand means that you're in a problem area if he says something unexpected.

Originally Posted by DundeeDancer

I imagine reckonising these signals at freestyle speed is a hard task so the followers definitley deserve lots of

Nah, they get the easy job