Do you like it rough?

[ChrisA]

A question about lead and follow... as a taxi dancer I find I often have to dance with beginners and show them that contrary to what they've just experienced, following a guy on the dance floor doesn't have to be painful, with the risk of dislocated joints.

How bad is the problem, ladies?

Chris

[Aleks]

It's not just the beginners.....there are a few experienced dancers out there who can be rough, but are more gentle when I point out they're hurting me!

I'd like to know if the men also have experience of vice-like grips and steel arms....does your lead need to change with the follower??

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Aleks
I'd like to know if the men also have experience of vice-like grips and steel arms....does your lead need to change with the follower??

Very much so.

I'm currently dancing most weeks with a very nice lady beginner who is picking it up really well. For some reason she seems to want to dance with me and is always asking me for feedback...

But until recently she's been a bit of a workout, though I haven't said anything while she was just getting the hang of things - I'd rather they danced with a bit too much resistance than not enough - till last week when I was dancing with her, and said something like "ok, you've got the resistance/connection thing very good, now try it with a quarter of the force".

She cottoned on brilliantly, and when I asked her at the end whether (a) she could feel the difference and (b) did she prefer it that way, the answer was a resounding yes to both. From my perspective the "feel" of the dance went from "Ok" to "delightful" at the same time.

As aside, BTW:

There is far too much in the way of blokes attempting to "teach" on the dance floor, when IMHO they would be much better off concentrating on improving their own lead.

If I say anything about a lady's dancing, it is only when I'm on taxi duty, and sparingly if that, or if I am specifically asked.

Chris

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Aleks
I'd like to know if the men also have experience of vice-like grips and steel arms....does your lead need to change with the follower??

Definitely. The grip of death is quite rare, but the strong arm is unfortunately too common. The other problem some ladies have is a need to move from one spot to another really quick, and then expect the man to stop them and pull them back. Sorry - it is called 'leading', not 'hammer throwing' or 'tug of war'.

My lead does change. If the lady insists on gripping my hand, I will start leading her from the back or side of her hand, or her wrist, or her back or shoulders - ie anywhere but her fingers. 30 seconds or so later I'll try the hand again and she usually relaxes. I'm not sure whether it is changing her technique, or just confusing her, but it makes it better for me.

If the lady really pulls my hand I can do two things. I can keep a lot closer to her, and let her pull my hand. But just my hand goes, not the rest of my body. Or I can let go of the normal grip, and place my hand on top of hers. If she pulls away, she just goes. In order to keep the connection she has to control her own momentum.

(I tend to do these leads with everyone now - the good followers and the bad. It just seems to give me a lot more options, and adds a bit of variety to the dance. Ladies - please don't assume I'm criticising your following if I do any of these leads.)

David

[Forte]

It can be quite scary when a really good male dancer makes you dance out of your skin and do moves you haven't done before But scary in a good way - mostly! The most surprisingly brilliant lead I had recently (been dancing for about a year's worth...) was with Lorna! She was fab!!! It made me want to be brave enough to do a beginner's class as a "man" if you know what I mean.... I do feel a slight terror still when I dance with Steve, Franck and even yourself David (danced with you in Perth) but you were lovely and very gentle...It's wonderful when a good dancer asks a less experienced dancer to dance and I think you guys who are good should be more generous with your selves!! TheTramp, Steve, was wonderful at the Glasgow class on Monday this week and he danced with as many beginners as possible. A true evangelist for the cause !!In all my classes, workshops, dances I have only ever had my arm yanked once or twice and by no one named here of course!! but guys who want you to bend straight back (a la gymnastic crab position) without warning (and there is one on the loose at the 'mo) should be shot!

[Chris]

Originally posted by DavidB
Definitely. The grip of death is quite rare, but the strong arm is unfortunately too common. The other problem some ladies have is a need to move from one spot to another really quick, and then expect the man to stop them and pull them back. Sorry - it is called 'leading', not 'hammer throwing' or 'tug of war'.

I find all three are not that uncommon. The strong arm I used to find quite scary as I'm not very strong and my muscles would ache easily after a couple of dances with a 'strong arm'.

If the lady insists on gripping my hand, I will start leading her from the back or side of her hand, or her wrist, or her back or shoulders - ie anywhere but her fingers.

I've only learnt this hold recently and find it a godsend (hand over the lady's, as if gripping her wrist, but sliding down to the back of her hand). I find it a great way of giving a delicate lead, but unfortunately more appreciated by experienced ladies[/b][/quote]

Ladies - please don't assume I'm criticising your following if I do any of these leads.)

Which is a still worry I have if I use it . . .

Originally posted by Forte
It can be quite scary when a really good male dancer makes you dance out of your skin and do moves you haven't done before
But scary in a good way - mostly!

And good fun for the leader who has the pleasure of your expression of shocked delight! Find this works best with intermediates and beginners and more advanced dancers that a) do a lot of blues and/or b) don't mostly dance with a regular partner. Sometimes they can be very resistant to being 'led' (and even one try can cause them to feel put off sadly)

[Jon L]

I must confess that I have been guilty of being over rough on the dance floor, when I was a beginner.

I have to be aware that if I feel tired then I should take my dance shoes and walk off the dance floor (at the end of a record of course), because in this instance I am likely to grind moves out, and if I do then that is when the problem could occur.

Some advice I will offer to experienced men, is watch out for bad habits (I have been dancing 3 years). On holiday recently I totally by accident as was unaware I had done so until a day or two later caused a ladies shoulder to ache. It wasn't until I had returned home that the fault was diagnosed. This was caused by a move called the swizzle, or the hammerhook. I had taken the arm up too high when straightening it (e.g armjive swizzle)which puts strain on a woman's shoulder. This fault was now been corrected.

Ladies if it hurts, please tell the guy, it's far better he knows he's got it wrong. Men if the lady doesn't follow your lead (e.g. on archiespin), the back off don't force the woman into the lead.

[Gadget]

I think that a lot of people find it hard to distinguish between a "strong lead" and a "forcefull lead";
A strong lead will use firm pressure in a specific direction to start the lady moving on the desired direction (or ease her into stopping).
A forcefull lead trys to move the lady through the whole action of the move, from start to finish.

This means that the lady is forced to the lead's rhythm and direction without any allowance being made for her own timing, balance, space, movement and direction. She knows where she is on the floor; you should only need to guide her through the moves. She will naturally resist being shoved and forced into a pattern that dosn't flow with her sense of direction or balance.

The hardest ladys to lead are those who are of 'intermediate' level {IMHO} and I suspect that most lady's of this level find themselves coming off the dance floor with aching muscles: Beginners don't know the moves, so I can lead them into variations fairly smoothly. More advanced dancers actualy follow the lead throught the whole move and follow variations as long as I lead them well.
Intermediate ladys tend to second guess moves and throw themselves into the whole move once given the start of it - going into a variation needs to be done with as little disruption to their expected flow of the move as possable. The problem I think is compound when the same level of lead trys to force a lady into a variation she dosn't expect.

I don't think I have been rough on the dance floor - I know I have been forcefull once or twice during beginner classes in an attempt to guide complete novices through the moves that they were struggling with. :sorry: But in my defense, they have said later that it helped.

[Forte]

Talking of forceful reminds me of something that happened off the dance floor at the Perth party in August (it's clean - I am in the right thread). I took along my non dancing gal pal from work. She was coming as a HUGE favour to me as I was new to Perth and didn't know a soul but had done a little ceroc before in Glasgow. She was happy to do the little ceilidh bit but only came because I reassured her she did not have to dance ceroc and could just enjoy Lily and David's cabaret, Sheena and Steve's and then the competition. Well, this guy came up (honestly don't know his name but he was in his fififties) and asked her to dance. Of course she said no but he was very persistent...eventually she said "my friend will dance with you," He said "I don't want to dance with her I want to dance with you" so I smiled and explained that she had only come along as a favour to me...she had never been to a ceroc class in her life etc etc but that I would be happy to dance with him...what he said next took my breath away..."Did she pay to get in?" I said "Of course" and he then said "Well, then she is obliged to dance with me" !!! Grrr! How rude can you get! We both stayed polite and I did dance with him just to get him away from my poor friend although I am mad at myself for being so polite! My friend who LOVED! the cabaret and competition has never been to any classes since because of that stupid man.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Forte
...what he said next took my breath away..."Did she pay to get in?" I said "Of course" and he then said "Well, then she is obliged to dance with me" !!! Grrr! How rude can you get!

Is this guy a regular? Even though a bit of time has gone by, I would still say this sort of thing warrants a chat to the venue management.

Treatment of beginners by some of the more predatory, often older, guys can be a serious issue sometimes, and I really believe it needs to be tackled, whenever, and wherever it crops up.

I know of several beginner ladies that have come a couple of times to the Ceroc venue where I taxi, been perved on, manhandled around the floor (often by terrible dancers), or had to put up with one or two of the weirdos that sometimes hang around - and then refused to come back (this was confirmed to me throught the friend that brought them initially).

I do my best to "rescue" the beginners that I see being mistreated - it's not uncommon for the abusers to be wanting second and even third consecutive dances and I have no qualms about interrupting quite assertively on occasion when the track changes. Invariably the newcomer ladies are amazed and pleased to discover that it doesn't have to be like that - that they can dance without being yanked around or felt up.

Dance is a wonderful thing - and for it to be spoiled for a beginner by some creep is something that makes my blood boil.

Chris

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Forte
has never been to any classes since because of that stupid man.

hmm wonder who that was...probably best not to find out

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
hmm wonder who that was...probably best not to find out

On the contrary, perpetrators of this kind of abusive behaviour should be exposed, if only to the management who can hopefully have at least a word with them, keep an eye on them, and then ban them if they persist.

I am far more concerned for the feelings of new dancers who are likely to be in the majority of decent, boundaried people, than I am about avoiding a fuss, sticking with the status quo, and letting the few complete gits out there spoil things.

Chris

[Forte]

Genuinely have forgotten what he looks like...but you guys are great for caring...whilst we are discussing it... I also hate guys who trail their hand under my boobs instead of my waist...on a move round ; they can pretend that their hand is just accidentally high all they like but one of these days I am going to bop one of them! My waist is at least five inches lower than my boobs!!!

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Forte
... I also hate guys who trail their hand under my boobs instead of my waist...on a move round ; they can pretend that their hand is just accidentally high all they like but one of these days I am going to bop one of them!

DON'T PUT UP WITH IT !!!!!!!!!

NOT EVEN ONCE.

If they apologise after a genuinely inadvertant touch, fair enough. It happens occasionally. There was an occasion not that long ago I was dancing to a fast track with someone and got my timing completely wrong, and copped a handful ... gulp

... but I was mortified, knew immediately what I'd done and apologised profusely. The lady knew it was completely unintentional, and all was well. She even told me to stop apologising....

The point is ladies, you know the difference between something accidental, and a groper. Bopping the gropers is too damn good for them - at least tell them there and then that they're out of order, and walk off the dancefloor. And then tell the other ladies.

You wouldn't put up with it on the street - just because jive is a partner dance gives people no more right to behave inappropriately.

Sorry for the rant, this one sends me ballistic.

Chris

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by ChrisA
DON'T PUT UP WITH IT !!!!!!!!!

NOT EVEN ONCE.

A topic which has been covered in depth elsewhere, but well said Chris.

Greg

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Sheepman
A topic which has been covered in depth elsewhere, but well said Chris.

Greg

Thanks, Greg. Even if it has been covered before, maybe it's a topic that can stand some revisiting for newbies here (such as myself - and if I spent as much time in the archives as I do reading current threads, I'd never get any work done

Chris

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by ChrisA


On the contrary, perpetrators of this kind of abusive behaviour should be exposed, if only to the management who can hopefully have at least a word with them, keep an eye on them, and then ban them if they persist.

I didnt mean it like that - the organisers should be told, but stating the name/description on a public forum would be dodgy to say the least.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
I didnt mean it like that - the organisers should be told, but stating the name/description on a public forum would be dodgy to say the least.

Sorry, I misunderstood.

I totally agree, and wasn't suggesting for a moment that the naming and shaming should be here.

Chris

[Forte]

It is on my mind at the 'mo because I aim to introduce a few ceroc moves into the school show I am helping with and I would love to bring some of the S5 & S6 leads (steady!!) along for a few weeks to get them started but how could I possibly explain to their parents if they were groped... Also I must ask Franck about an age limit. Can under 18 year olds come along...? I did dance with an ex pupil in Glasgow on Monday night...(he is still at school but I have moved to a new school so he is an ex pupil of mine). It was wonderful to see him dance so well as he struggled in class (my fault not his, I'm sure). I dance with pupils all the time at ceilidhs as do all the teachers but would it be ok to bring them to a public ceroc class for a few weeks...does it matter that it is licensed? Thoughts, anyone on the ethics of this one?