(Learner) Leading Lady

[purpleheather]

Thought I would just post my musings on my first attempt at learning to lead in ceroc.

All thoughts, contributions and help welcomed

Last night in class did beginners (as a lead) and then the taxi-beginners’-refresher. Moves covered were: first move pushspin, yo-yo and comb. Was quite eye-opening doing the class as a lead. In the class, I felt that only about one of the follows was actually letting me lead: the others were all “doing the moves” themselves and/or assisting. (Q: how do I say to a follow, who is on their second week, and hasn’t yet been taught how to follow, “Would you let me lead this, please?” whilst being as nice about it as possible?). I found this made the class harder for me because:

• It made it difficult to tell whether I was actually able to remember the sequence of muscle movements: Was I doing it, or was I being “carried” through it by the lady?
• It made it difficult to tell whether, and how adequately I was leading. I was left asking myself questions like, “Did I put enough force into the downward and forward movement of my left hand in the pushspin to give the lady momentum?” “Was the counter-pull on the lady’s hip enough, and adequately directioned, or was I pulling the lady off-center?” On occasion I did ask the lady I was dancing with these very questions – and may say that I did get positive answers. However, with some of the follows, who were there for only the first or second time, and whom I felt were in some measure “assisting” and/or anticipating, I was left wondering how to evaluate their answers to these questions. (Paranoid, moi?!)

Things this has really brought home to me.

• Just how much beginners’ classes are movement-oriented, rather than lead and follow. Doing the moves, I felt very much that I was moving my arms, but wasn’t consciously aware of “leading” properly from my centre.
• How little they are directed at the ladies, and how little advice is given to the ladies on the subject of not assisting or anticipating: the result was that I had a number of ladies effectively trying to do their side of the moves themselves.
• How difficult it is for a beginner man to tell whether his lead is any way “right”, in terms of force, direction, connection etc.
• How difficult it is to lead for 3 minutes together, when you have only learnt 3 moves in the class. (Oddly enough, this was one of the moments where I realised that I knew, or at least could make a fair stab at, moves not covered in the class. Moves which I recollect attempting in freestyle include: arm-jive turn under, armjive pushspin, backpass, step-across, shoulder slide, basket and octopus, plus an unintended hatchback which I had meant to be a yo-yo) However, I was conscious that my follow may have felt at points that she was being condemned to perpetual-octopus-purgatory whenever I ran out of inspiration.
• How intimidated new leads can be. I asked one of the newbie male leads to dance with me (with me as follow, I may say) in the between-classes freestyle. I think it was this chap’s first night. He gave up about 1/3 of the way into the track and I wasn’t able to coax him back on to the floor. In turn, I felt intimidated asking ladies to dance, as I was very conscious of my own incompetence as a lead, and the lack of variety I could offer in the dance (not to mention the lack of musicality etc). At times I intentionally waited till about half way into a track before asking a lady, so that I didn'thave to bore her for a full track, and also because I didn't feel I could keep up leading for a full track.
• I have now realised that, when dancing as a follow, I have absolutely no idea what my particular "following" feels like to the lead.
• Having tried to lead for a couple of tracks (and doubtless bored a few follows silly in the process), the sheer JOY of going back to following. Going back to following after my botched attempts at leading in freestyle felt so, so, liberating. (Plus the fact that there were some really lovely leads there last night, to dance with.)

[NZ Monkey]

Welcome to our world!

[Steven666]

Originally Posted by NZ Monkey

Welcome to our world!

That's pretty much why I'm turning to following.

[tsh]

Originally Posted by purpleheather

[font=Arial](Q: how do I say to a follow, who is on their second week, and hasn’t yet been taught how to follow, “Would you let me lead this, please?” whilst being as nice about it as possible?).

I save this for the intermediate class (when they should know better), and usually preface it with 'You're not really helping'.

For the genuine beginners, it's really the teacher's problem to sort out (at the level of describing lead/follow and separate instruction for each)- Leading a slight variation might work (but it's difficult when you're learning to lead), or wait for them to say that they can't remember the moves (but then there's nothing obvious to say which will trivially help them to follow, except to not learn the moves). I'm not sure if this is a big hindrance for a complete beginner lead, it's more of an issue once you know some moves and don't have to think about the timing quite so much.

There are very few people I will bother asking about the effectiveness of a lead, most don't understand the question or can't spin on the spot, or expect to be thrown about. If it seems to work with most people, it's probably good enough. You'll probably learn most from when it goes wrong, so try a bit of variation - then do whatever is least effort.

Sean

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by purpleheather

...How difficult it is to lead for 3 minutes together, when you have only learnt 3 moves in the class...
...I felt intimidated asking ladies to dance, as I was very conscious of my own incompetence as a lead, and the lack of variety I could offer in the dance (not to mention the lack of musicality etc). At times I intentionally waited till about half way into a track before asking a lady, so that I didn'thave to bore her for a full track, and also because I didn't feel I could keep up leading for a full track...

This is a tip I keep forgetting to give new guys, to start with half or one third of a track with a lady who has missed out on the invites anyway.

[Steven666]

If I understood that a lead was new to it, I certainly wouldn't mind at all being led 3 or so moves through a three minute track. Thinking that people will get bored won't help you get the lead freestyle experience if you dodge dances or part of tracks because of it.

And personally, I wouldn't be bored anyway.

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by purpleheather

All thoughts, contributions and help welcomed ~

First; you have just come back from a weekend with really good dancers, where most of the workshops focused on lead & follow and connection... you then enter a world where neither the lead or follow have learned their roles. In this case, ignorance is bliss: you have expectations and know what you want to do and how you would expect followers to react - most other folk in the class don't have this knowledge to live up to, so I think it will appear much harder.

Second; yes, the classes are move orientated. But this does not automatically imply that the follower's don't follow - just that they expect to move/be moved in the pattern shown on the stage. Your skill as a lead here is not 100% to lead the follower, but to do as they expect and be where they expect you to be. The movements and hand positions will take care of the actual leading - at this stage, you just want to get your own position, weight and pattern correct.
(Not saying that the lead is unimportant, just that you are leading simply by moving your hands to the correct places: the follower should follow their hand. Dynamics like pressure , direction, force, hold, connection, etc. can be fine-tuned later. Until you know where to lead the follow, the question of how is not that relevant.)
As you get more confident with the basic patterns/moves, you can take more control and guide your follower better: you are always preparing for the next count and smoothing the lead between positions.
Don't expect any useful verbal feedback from real novices - how do they know what you were trying to do, how they should have reacted, what felt right, what felt wrong... you have to try and equate what actually happened to what you wanted to happen to what you did to make it happen. That's not easy. Especially since everyone reacts slightly different ways. But the more you do it, the more you have to draw upon and the clearer the picture gets of what is happening. THEN you have the problem of working out what to do to fix it, but you've got lots of help from teachers and everyone else there.

Third; you may get bored with three moves because you only dance those three moves with yourself. But for every partner, it's a new three moves led in a new way. Two tips for this:
1) don't stop. No matter how blank or bored you feel. Do a 'filler' move and look for inspiration to steal from someone else on the dance floor.
2) change something. The order of the moves is the most obvious, but you can put in a pause, repeat a section of a move, swap hands, reverse a section of a move, use a travelling return instead of a normal one, deliberately catch with the "wrong" hand and see what happens, even subtle changes like making a point of stepping in on a turn/return... But don't change it all at once - just pick one thing and then return to the moves you know again.

for giving it a go. Rest assured it does get easier, but as you discover one thing, it leads to five other things you really think you should look at closer. I still muck up the beginner's routine and I still have lots of things I want to correct within my lead of every beginner move... even the "in and out".

[Moondancer]

As far as follows doing a move in class rather than waiting to be led, I tend to find that many leaders don’t always appreciate that they have a major role in making the move work!

In my personal ideal scenario, on the first time step-through both parties should do the move with fairly equal responsibility, so that they both know what they should be doing. Then subsequent repeats should have the follow being more and more led. I don’t know if that’s how it’s meant to work, but that isn’t generally my experience of the class.

If the lead hasn’t got the move but I have, then I have a choice of backleading it (potentially upsetting the lead) or getting it wrong (lead thinks it’s my fault because I should move into the right place anyway). Sometimes the lead gets it wrong but thinks they’ve got it right so they cue one thing and then expect you to do something else. I actually tend to just get it wrong if it isn’t led right, not through devilry, but mainly because by the time we’re stringing a few moves together, I’ve forgotten what the sequence is, so I am literally just following.

I don’t always get what I am supposed to do, depending who I have had on the rotation and whether they’ve got it, and how many times I have had to stand out. Sometimes I feel the teachers don’t keep a close enough eye on how they are moving spare follows round. It can be incredibly frustrating to be standing out when the move is explained in detail, then when you go back, in the explanation is just whipped through because after all, it’s the second time through. This is a particular problem if you come to a person who hasn’t got it. Then you might half get it with the next person but then you’re moved onto a brand new beginner, then you’re out again. If the teacher isn’t careful then you can always end up getting the same leads and being out in the same place….so then the next new move is shown while you are standing out and the pattern repeats, and you basically don’t get anything from the whole class. And bang, you’re straight into freestyle with someone and haven’t got a clue. I’m sure that anyone who is smart enough to be an MJ teacher should be able to get around the problem by alternating moving odd and even numbers round, or something, and making sure the same group of people aren’t always out at the same part of each move teach.

Also, where the class infils spare ladies rather than does the join-the-end-of-the-line thing, if the standing out isn’t staggered sensibly then you can get a stretch of standing out every other time a move is taught plus getting three beginners in a row – again, you haven’t a hope of getting it.

Leads need to take a bit of responsibility too; I love to chat on the rotation, but I’d rather not talk whilst the teacher is showing the bit that I haven’t grasped yet. Nor do I really appreciate it when a lead decides to use our time together to show me a variation they think is better - it might be, but it won’t help me when everyone else I dance with later expects me to follow what was taught. And they need to listen – some leads (and presumably follows) think they have been dancing long enough that the teacher isn’t talking to them. If the teacher is telling people how to hold hands, then yes, it’s basic and they say it every week, but it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve heard it whilst being held in a vice-like death grip by a man who isn’t listening.

I reckon I have responsibilities as a follow too:

- To pay close attention to what I am expected to do, and use the time round the rotation to learn what my cues are going to be, and spot how they are differing between the men giving them.


- If it’s a move we can both do easily then to use the opportunity to work on making my moves neater etc.


- To smile and be friendly, be basically non-critical of how I’m being led (barring actual pain or being asked for help) and to be extra welcoming to newbies

- To be content with (and be supportive of) being led into the same three moves over and over again!

[Hot Cookie]

having tried the lead on 6 or so occasions now I have learnt it can be quite nerve racking to have responsibility as the lead....that i too walk through the dance rather than wait to be led in lessons at times. I have also learnt how important the tension/connection is from the follower to allow a lead to do their role successfully, but most importantly how important it is to give encouragement!...think we all need it!

[Magic Hans]

Originally Posted by Gadget

for giving it a go. Rest assured it does get easier, but as you discover one thing, it leads to five other things ...

and

Now witness how your following will progress to a new level!!

It's a big (and uncomfortable) step to take; swapping roles, but will pay massive dividends (IMO).

Lead and follow almost never gets taught in my opinion. It is not a linear, mechanistic skill that can be effectively learned through theory and mental processing. It is experiential learned in different ways by different people, and doesn't give instant results. A 'one solution fits all' methodology can work perfectly well with new moves, but not with leading. All this seems to give good reason for not teaching it ... generally.

Swapping roles is, IMHO, the only real effective way of learning and getting some sense of understanding of the subtleties of the lead/follow dynamic.

Finally, whenever I come accross beginner blokes, my first advice is to learn 4 moves (in particular), and learn them well. Build those into a short stable (and yes, repetitive) routine. Having some manner of distinct goal really, really helps, and I believe that once this first, little simple routine is mastered, that person has completed a first step, that can never be unlearned!!

Good idea about the half or two thirds through a track!! I'll remember that one for future!

[firefly]

Originally Posted by Moondancer

~snip~

I don’t always get what I am supposed to do, depending who I have had on the rotation and whether they’ve got it, and how many times I have had to stand out. Sometimes I feel the teachers don’t keep a close enough eye on how they are moving spare follows round. It can be incredibly frustrating to be standing out when the move is explained in detail, then when you go back, in the explanation is just whipped through because after all, it’s the second time through. This is a particular problem if you come to a person who hasn’t got it. Then you might half get it with the next person but then you’re moved onto a brand new beginner, then you’re out again. If the teacher isn’t careful then you can always end up getting the same leads and being out in the same place….so then the next new move is shown while you are standing out and the pattern repeats, and you basically don’t get anything from the whole class. And bang, you’re straight into freestyle with someone and haven’t got a clue. I’m sure that anyone who is smart enough to be an MJ teacher should be able to get around the problem by alternating moving odd and even numbers round, or something, and making sure the same group of people aren’t always out at the same part of each move teach.

~snip~

Interesting points Moondancer. I just wanted to pick up on the part about moving round during the class and always ending up with the same partners during the rotation. TBH there's nothing to stop the spare followers taking a bit of responsibility and changing the order they're standing in while they're out of the rotation. Hopefully that should ensure the followers aren't ending up with the same leaders each time

[Moondancer]

It's perfectly true that followers could change their order, but unless you happen to be standing with your friends, you get rather funny looks, as if you are somehow trying to jump (or un-jump??) the queue.

Also the leads think you have counted ahead and are purposely trying to avoid them! (That might be true, but one doesn't want to dent any fragile male egos....)

[DundeeDancer]

Originally Posted by Moondancer

It's perfectly true that followers could change their order, but unless you happen to be standing with your friends, you get rather funny looks, as if you are somehow trying to jump (or un-jump??) the queue.

Also the leads think you have counted ahead and are purposely trying to avoid them! (That might be true, but one doesn't want to dent any fragile male egos....)

I think it was a good suggestion by Firefly, all you need to do is say to a fellow follower taking a seat out beside you is,"would you like to swap places so we have different leads to practice with? After all variety is the spice of life ".

Probably spark up a good little conversation and find yourself a new friend, if not you'll know the person is a bore and is to be avoid in future, either way your better off.

The male ego may be fragile but mine does get booted, dented, shattered, stab and generally abused on a daily bases but it's amazing how quickly it can heal itself so I shouldn't worry about it if I was you.

Best wishes, DD.

[LemonCake]

When I started leading, and when I learn anything new (not as often as I should ) I make a point of asking any more experienced follows (basically, the ones who look familiar!) who get me in rotation how my lead was.

Regarding teaching of lead-follow, and beginner ladies anticipating:

In my taxi-refresher classes I do specifically cover this point by explaining to the men that they have the difficulty of watching, then remembering and leading; and explaining to the ladies that they have the difficulty of watching then forgetting specific moves but remembering the feeling of how to respond. I also explain that 'helping' doesn't help at all, and that if they aren't physically manoeuvred, they shouldn't go anywhere!

It is most easily demonstrated in moves like the armjive-pushspin, where the lead can choose any number of armjives before changing for the pushspin part. Follows guilty of anticipating are immediately noticeable - the small class size helps with this.

I have noticed this point being taught in main class occasionally (usually where there's a suitable move to test it on) but it's probably harder to convey, observe and give feedback with a full-size class (without making anyone feel uncomfortably singled out). I find that as a taxi in main class it is mostly just not practical to give the detailed advice needed by a total beginner to have them fully leading - particularly if it ends up with you talking under the teacher, or slowing things down too much. That's the time for back-guiding, although it goes against the grain. Once into refresher class or freestyle I smile and say 'you're in charge' - usually it works. It's easier to shake follows out of the habit by leading moves they don't know, or changing the order.

Excellent tip about half-tracks, I'll pass that on to my taxi-ees.

I don't know if learning to lead changed my following style, but it certainly made me appreciate the ingenuity of leaders all the more! :notworthy:

[Lory]

Originally Posted by purpleheather

How difficult it is to lead for 3 minutes

[stairman]

I have found that most new followers like to get the same 3 moves taught in the main class that night repeated for the hole track so that they get conferable with what they are expected to do and get confidence in there dancing

I do mix the moves up and repeat them for variation and to discourage back leading

I have had relief express that I am not leading moves they don't know

Some followers in first few lessens can follow almost anything I lead then seam to lose this ability as they LEARN the moves

[Steven666]

Originally Posted by stairman

I have found that most new followers like to get the same 3 moves taught in the main class that night repeated for the hole track so that they get conferable with what they are expected to do and get confidence in there dancing

I do mix the moves up and repeat them for variation and to discourage back leading

I have had relief express that I am not leading moves they don't know

Some followers in first few lessens can follow almost anything I lead then seam to lose this ability as they LEARN the moves

Last night when going twice through into freestyle I instantly changed the order of the beginner moves and added a few link moves as I could feel an element of prediction from the biginner follower. After two or three moves she stated that she didn't know which move we were up to ie for her to lead herself into. So after a brief explanation of lead and follow (while still dancing), but the end of the track I could lead pretty much lead any intermediate move as I had stopped the prediction and back leading dead in it's tracks. I feel if this approach could be done for all beginner followers from the off, back leading would be a thing of the past. The way moves are taught in lessons only encourage back leading IMHO.

[whitetiger1518]

If a lead apologises to me about how few moves they have there are two things I say to them:

• I would rather be led well through 1 or 2 moves repeatedly for a track, than led badly through 10 - after all if you only lead me through an octopus for the entire track you are giving me time to practice the neatness etc of following
  
• I'm never bored ! I change partners for practically every track - Put in extra moves for your own sake - not mine - If you feel you want a change then you add something for your own benefit.

Whitetiger