Ladies who wriggle about...

[marko]

Hi All

OK so I am just a humble (9 week) beginner but I do like to think I have some basic feel for the rhythm of music etc, even for a bloke. Is it just me or do other guys find that when they dance with SOME ladies the girls are in a bit of a world of their own, dancing to a different tune? This is not meant as complaint towards said ladies who seem to like to wriggle about when they dance, more a question of how the heck do we keep time when they seem oblivious to the beat? It all looks very interesting but it makes keeping the dance on the beat really hard. What am I doing worng.

The blues freestyle we went to (just for fun) was a particular example of the wiggle & grind thing going on.

Is this a different style that I havent been exposed to yet?

Anybody got any ideas?

Cheers
Mark

[geoff332]

It can be done badly or it can be done well, by either partner.

When done well, it accentuates the music. When done badly, it's probably because that's how they danced at their school discos (the real thing, not the more "adult" version...) and think it's how you dance.

Leading it, it's a balance between giving your partner freedom to express herself and maintaining control over the dance. What this often means is delaying your move until she's finished. The key point as a lead it to make sure when you do move, you move on the beat. If you miss the beat, wait until the next one. A good follow will sense your anxiety (mostly because you should be tensing your arm up, which they should feel) and be prepared to move. A less good follow is likely to be oblivious.

When people talk about connection - I think of this as a part of it. In a sense, dancing is a conversation between two people. The connection is how well you listen to one another.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally Posted by marko

Is it just me or do other guys find that when they dance with SOME ladies the girls are in a bit of a world of their own, dancing to a different tune?

It happens of course, but maybe they are fine and its you thats out Your best bet is to dance with the really experienced as much as you can and check - and get yourself a stronger lead

[Gav]

Originally Posted by marko

Hi All

OK so I am just a humble (9 week) beginner but I do like to think I have some basic feel for the rhythm of music etc, even for a bloke. Is it just me or do other guys find that when they dance with SOME ladies the girls are in a bit of a world of their own, dancing to a different tune? This is not meant as complaint towards said ladies who seem to like to wriggle about when they dance, more a question of how the heck do we keep time when they seem oblivious to the beat? It all looks very interesting but it makes keeping the dance on the beat really hard. What am I doing worng.

The blues freestyle we went to (just for fun) was a particular example of the wiggle & grind thing going on.

Is this a different style that I havent been exposed to yet?

Anybody got any ideas?

Cheers
Mark

Ooooh that's a tough one for a newbie, Mark.

It does take some getting used to. It's all about expressing yourself. The better/more experienced followers will want to express themselves to the music, outside of dance moves.
You're just learning to remember and string moves together and the ladies your dancing with want you to stop or slow down moves so that they can do their thing.

I think it maybe 1 of 2 things happening here:
1. The ladies in question are just learning to be more expressive and haven't learnt yet that they should probably wait until their leader gives them space to do so (when dancing with a newer leader like yourself).
2. You're a naturally good dancer and those ladies are assuming that you'll be OK with them doing their bit.

Either way it can make life difficult for you, however, when you see more experienced dancers and the ladies are doing flash, sexy stuff, it's usually because the leader has given her a bit of space to do so and stopped pulling her around.

It's difficult at first to gauge when to give the follower space and even worse, when to take the lead back! But you'll get the hang of it, and after only 9 weeks I wouldn't be too concerned about it if I were you.

If you want to know what to do while they're shimmying, wiggling and looking sexy, whatever you do, don't stand totally still! (unless they're using you as a pole at the time).

Best of luck.

[Lost Leader]

Great advice Gav.

[Caz]

Originally Posted by Gav

If you want to know what to do while they're shimmying, wiggling and looking sexy, whatever you do, don't stand totally still! (unless they're using you as a pole at the time).

Best of luck.

Women using men as a pole... never....

[David Bailey]

At the moment, I think you should assume that it's you at fault. Because, even if it's not, it's good practice

At some level, however, yes, it's the follower's responsibility to not interfere with the actual lead by extraneous or disruptive musicality / expression / whatever.

A lot of followers tend to overdo the musicality, without paying attention to the actual lead. There's a real art to being a follower who can both express the music, but who retains connection; it's quite a balancing trick to do it right.

Lory is very good at keeping this balance - she manages to retain expressivity, without ever damaging the connection.

[marko]

Hi All

Thaks for the feedback. Just wanted to stress that I am not trying to say the ladies are in the worng here. The point of the post was to better undertand what is going on and how I can correct/adapt my dancing to let it happen without being thrown off-beat and crashing. I fully accept that it is my fault. It is hard for any problem not to be the guys fault in such a male-led situation.

Thanks for the advice so far. All suggestions gratefully read!

Cheers
Mark

[Feelingpink]

Originally Posted by marko

.. It all looks very interesting but it makes keeping the dance on the beat really hard. What am I doing worng.
...

Well, perhaps she isn't dancing to the beat, but is instead dancing to the rest of the music - the melody or rhythms over the top of it or something else different (equally perhaps she doesn't have a musical bone in her body). Dancing can be the most horrid thing in the world if your partner is oblivious to the music, but also can become the most horrid thing in the world if all you ever do is step on every beat. Hang in there and you'll figure it out - just keep listening to the music and watching your partner.

[JonD]

Marko, it's a damn good question!

I use the concept that "first you lead, then you follow" to help me adjust my lead to my partner. My lead is an invitation, and I see how my partner responds to it and follow them in that response before making the next invitation. In the context of a man-spin, you lead your partner to walk past you then follow her, by turning yourself, as she does so. Thinking in those terms seems to prepare me better to adjust when a partner decides to add, subtract or even ignore my invitation! Imagine your partner deciding to slow down her walk past you and, perhaps, adorn the walk with a body ripple as she draws level with you - by knowing that you are in "following mode" while she makes that walk you will automatically adjust to the new timing and feel of the move.

As Geoff so rightly says, partner dance is a conversation; totally one sided conversations tend to get a bit boring for the listener (unless I'm talking about myself, or tango, in which case they are endlessly fascinating). You may have previous experience of partner dancing; I was totally new to dance when I started MJ and remember finding it incredibly difficult, and rather intimidating, to dance with followers who "conversed" with me - it was hard enough to lead sequences of moves in time to the music. If you think "first I lead, then I follow", relax and remember not to rush - another beat you can catch will be along in a second - you'll start to get comfortable with it and discover that followers who "play" can be a total delight!

[Dreadful Scathe]

ooh nice post JonD - I agree very much.

[martingold]

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

ooh nice post JonD - I agree very much.

And me

[Martin]

Maybe it is harder learning MJ than it used to be after all

Originally Posted by marko

Hi All

how the heck do we keep time when they seem oblivious to the beat? It all looks very interesting but it makes keeping the dance on the beat really hard.

I would say, relax, while they are wiggling, stay cool and calm and be ready to pick up the beat when they have finished.
As in, do not try to pull them into the next move too soon, but have the next move ready.
After a while I am sure you will enjoy it

Originally Posted by Gav

I think it maybe 1 of 2 things happening here:
1. The ladies in question are just learning to be more expressive and haven't learnt yet that they should probably wait until their leader gives them space to do so (when dancing with a newer leader like yourself).
2. You're a naturally good dancer and those ladies are assuming that you'll be OK with them doing their bit.

It might be a bit of number 1, I suspect it has something to do with number 2 - They might see you as someone who can cope with it, the trick now of course, is to be able to cope with it

Take it as a compliment, that women feel free to express themselves with you

Good luck

[latinlover]

Marko
It all depends on how experienced the ladies you are dancing with are.Most of the foregoing answers are assuming ,I think ,that they are 'experienced' and are therefore consciously and deliberately wiggling...
As a taxi dancer I see this all the time with beginner ladies,who have watched my wife dance(she is known wiggler....)and think they have to do the same in order to be a good dancer.They think that imitating the style will give them the substance, when actually it's the other way around - once they know what to do and where to be,the style follows.
My advice is usually for them to stop 'trying' to dance and simply try walking to the beat .
Of course ,as a new leader you will be in no position to tell them what to do, so the only solution is to wait until they have finished their wiggle and then try find moves which you can control more easily,such as the octopus, the arm-jive etc, and bring them back on to your beat. You will find that the longer you dance the more your confidence grows and the easier this will be to deal with.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by latinlover

As a taxi dancer I see this all the time with beginner ladies,who have watched my wife dance(she is known wiggler....)and think they have to do the same in order to be a good dancer.

Excellent point - Mrs LL is another lovely dancer, who like Lory, never kills the connection - but it's difficult to see that visually, you have to dance with them to feel the difference.

[Chef]

This CAN be really nice provided it is not overdone or over used and it abslutely has to be done in time to the music. If the wiggle is over emphasised then the followers lose the stability in their core muscles that the leader needs in order to be able to lead the whole of the woman by means of leading their hands or their shoulders. You are trying to lead their hands or shoulders and when that lead reaches their midriff then there is a sort of disconnection and the lead fails to properly reach their hips, leg and feet. Some ladies do the exaggerated hip wiggle thing as a constant action and by doing so they lose the ability to use the action to highlight or accent their dancing.

For a new leader it creates a few problems. Leaders can no longer see or feel the connection between what you lead and the effect that it has because that feedback gets lost in the clutter of the overdone wriggling. Leaders also get confused because they are unsure as to when to leave them space to play and wriggle and when to retake control and lead the next move. The music, IMHO should create an expectation in both the leaders and followers as to where these accent points for wiggling etc should be. It is this connection with the music that allows both leaders and followers to communicate with the music and as a result, with each other. If a leader pulls a follower through the accent points, or a follower wriggles about all the time then that connection with the music, and each other is lost or severely degraded.

But we must be understanding of why people do it. Experienced followers put the wiggles and accents in and others see it and think that it is really cool BUT they copy it at ALL times in the belief that it will make them look cool all the time. They have failed to understand that it is the CONTRAST between the basic movement and the accent points that creates the visual interest. They are going through a learning process with their dance in just the same way that you are doing and they haven’t realised the affect that they are having on your ability to lead. Their desire to look cool has taken their attention away from their primary role of following your lead. BUT, some leads fail to provide a proper lead and this can leave the followers feeling that they have to do some creative wriggling to avoid looking like they are standing still.

Leaders often fall into the same trap with flash moves like drops. They learn them in classes and have a great desire to do them to the point of overuse and at in appropriate points in the music, where the follower has no expectation of a drop coming.

Considering your short experience at leading I would ask you to consider if dancing with these wriggly followers is good for you. It could do more harm than good, leaving you confused and demoralised. I would advise you to get comfortable with your basics first and develop the ability to guide your follower to exactly where you want her to be. When you do want the challenge of leading these followers that wiggle and use accent points I would advise you to look for the ones that do not use it as a constant thing and to spend lots of time observing how they use it IN RELATION TO THE MUSIC. That will help you better understand the music and when to allow them space to play, or when to expect them to want to play, and when you should regain control. For me, the best followers are the ones that follow as their primary role and accent the music as a secondary role.

A really great follower can do this stuff without affecting your connection, will use it judiciously, and add to the dance vastly as a result. In time you will come to love it but it might be best to not throw yourself in at the deep end just yet.

Good Luck and happy dancing.

[Steven666]

What if a follower gives control back to the lead off beat? It happens... For a newbie, it will only confuse.

And so should follows do extra styling/change timing etc with beginner leads at all? Surely that would be like throwing a beginner follower into flashy drop moves. Not wise IMO.

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by marko

How the heck do we keep time when they seem oblivious to the beat?

Well, listen to the music for the beat, rather than watching your follower. So make sure you know where the beat is even if your partner is off on one.
Then, to get them back on the beat, pick any simple move that you can dance well. Extended arm jives work, as do first moves. It's not so much about keeping your follower on-beat all the time, so much as bringing them back to it when they wander off.
Plus, stopping and starting again is 100% allowed.

[NZ Monkey]

Originally Posted by Marko

How the heck do we keep time when they seem oblivious to the beat?

My advice is to use your feet to mark time. In other words - "step" on every beat, and stepping in place is fine as well. In time you'll learn how to delay and vary that pattern once you get that stepping motion down the rest becomes considerably easier later down the line.

It also means you won't be tempted to bounce your hand to mark the beat. This is a good thing IMHO.

Regarding the ladies wiggling constantly: There really isn't much you can do about it. You can't strap them into a straight jacket on the dance floor and if they want to wiggle their hips and torso around there isn't much you can do to stop them. Given that you're a newer lead (and please don't take this the wrong way.... ) I'm running with the assumption that you're mostly dancing with newer followers as well? If that's the case then I second Chefs post 100%, although that doesn't let you off the hook for trying to lead more clearly

I've danced with quite a few women who wiglle constantly and in all honesty I find it irritating. For those who can wiggle well it's great, but for the majority it just makes them hard to dance with.

[marko]

Originally Posted by NZ Monkey

I've danced with quite a few women who wiglle constantly and in all honesty I find it irritating. For those who can wiggle well it's great, but for the majority it just makes them hard to dance with.

Hi there

Thanks for the advice. The tip about marking time with the feet whilst waiting for said lady to complete the wiggle seems like a good tip, I will give that a go.

As for dnacing with mainly newer ladies, not really the case. We keep being told to ask the experienced dancers for a twirl so I do (mad I know!) but I figure I can learn something from the experience and it may show me how to make things better for the lady next time. Perhaps I should stick to the newbies?

As for a previous reply about pausing. That sounds good and there are times when the music feels right to do that. Problem is, how do you convey this to the lady without everything coming to a jarring halt with the usual scowl/comment from the lady.

Cheers
Mark