Lead Signals

[NZ Monkey]

Originally Posted by David Bailey

Finally, as if that's not enough bedtime reading, there are also a couple of threads on the MJDA forum discussing this in some details:
MJDA forum
and
MJDA forum

(I think it's safe to say that those two threads go into enough details to satisfy most people )

Agreed, and I still stand by my statements in those threads

[tsh]

Originally Posted by gebandemuishond

Personally, I always got confused with how to differentiate to my follower that I wanted to do a sway rather than a ceroc/ladyspin.

... snip ...

You mentioned having problems with catapult vs. return.

I see a common theme here... If you are finding that your ladies are staying on the spot when you are trying to lead a catapult, you're probably worrying too much about their turn - but actually, you need to get them alongside you before you turn them. The key part that might be missing for both the sway and the catapult is leading the first step straight forward, and only once she has started to move would I start to turn her.

I'd also take issue with the standard script for the basket 'take your left hand over your right, and lead the lady forward' as being in the wrong order. Easier to walk through in a class maybe, but nothing like the way I lead the move now (even in a class, as the ladies try and cross their hand over for me when they think I've not understood)

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by David Bailey

Fiinally, as if that's not enough bedtime reading, there are also a couple of threads on the MJDA forum discussing this in some details:
MJDA forum
and
MJDA forum

(I think it's safe to say that those two threads go into enough details to satisfy most people )

Actually, if the thread on the first link had continued, my next post was going to be an analysis of the period and stability of small oscillations of an off-balance follower. For that matter, there was a lot of bemoaning the lack of actual data for human reaction time, physical force involved in leading, etc.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by David Franklin

Actually, if the thread on the first link had continued, my next post was going to be an analysis of the period and stability of small oscillations of an off-balance follower. For that matter, there was a lot of bemoaning the lack of actual data for human reaction time, physical force involved in leading, etc.

Lucky escape there, then

[Andy McGregor]

As the only person on this thread who doesn't teach signals, has taught for years and teaches beginners lessons 3 times a week I can tell you that you don't need signals.

What you need is a teacher who teaches you how to have a gentle lead - you also need partners who can follow a gentle lead. If you have partners who are waiting for a signal there is a good chance that you will not have a partner who can follow a gentle lead. If you attend classes where they teach signals you will get partners who are looking for signals rather than a gentle lead.

My advice is to find a class where the teacher does not teach signals.

My other advice is to consider the advice you are being given on this thread in the light of how much experience they have of teaching beginners. Teaching beginners is the hardest part of teaching: you take someone with no dance experience and get them to dance moves within a 35-45 minute lesson. Teaching moves to people who can already dance is much easier. On this thread you have some excellent advanced teachers, eg. DavidB. And you have some wannabe beginners teachers who have little teaching experience, if any, and have not taught anybody to become an accomplished dancer. Take their advice at your peril

Of course, you can do signals. And many people do and get by just fine. But you will find that they are like the stablisers on a bike. You need to remove them to progress. The problem is that, by then, those movements will have got into your muscle memory and will be difficult to stop. Remember, it is 10 times as hard to train out a bad habit once established than it is to establish a good habit.

[Martin]

Originally Posted by DavidB

Try doing a move using a signal eg Neck Break.

Do it a few times, and work out what you have to do with your other hand to make the lady do the same movement.

Then do it without the signal.

You can now do the move with anyone - not just ladies who know the signal. *That* is the difference.

Always listen to DavidB

Originally Posted by tsh

As to the difference between signals and leads, consider what happens when your partner has her eyes closed.

Sean

A good one to practice. - once you have taken on board DavidB's advice, try leading the neck break and also the first move with a partner with her eyes closed...

Jumble the moves up and see if she follows... If she follows the move you wanted... You are leading

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

As the only person on this thread who doesn't teach signals

Until now, or maybe an assumption...

Moving on to the catapult... a top turn, or return, you guide the lady by lifting your hand above her head, with a little motion, to the direction she is being invited to move.
The catapult I have always said to the guys is a "cricket bowling action" whilst you move forwards. "Bowl the Ladies over"


The thing to remember Mark, is that you did ask... so you will get some good replies and some average replies, from people with 1 year to 20 years of experience. Some teachers and some wannabies, and some keen dancers who have been where you are now.

So pick out the good bits, and enjoy.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by Martin

Until now, or maybe an assumption...

The full quote is below.

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

As the only person on this thread who doesn't teach signals, has taught for years and teaches beginners lessons 3 times a week I can tell you that you don't need signals.

It is a bit of an assumption. However, I'm not aware of any other experienced, regular beginners teachers posting on this thread that don't teach signals. Certainly none that are qualified

I'm quite prepared to let marko come on one of our beginners workshops for free to see how it's done properly. I'm not going to give the date on here as I'd be advertising. However, it's soon. If marko would like to give up a Sunday morning to get up early and travel to the seaside he'd see that signals really aren't needed. Marco, send me a PM if you're interested.

[Martin]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

I'm quite prepared to let marko come on one of our beginners workshops for free to see how it's done properly. I'm not going to give the date on here as I'd be advertising. However, it's soon. If marko would like to give up a Sunday morning to get up early and travel to the seaside he'd see that signals really aren't needed. Marco, send me a PM if you're interested.

Hey, now THAT is a good offer... See what the forum can do for you!

I would say - give it a go Marko.

[gebandemuishond]

Originally Posted by people talking about lead/signals

Long discussion about the differences between leads and signals and the advantages of not teaching signals, plus a bit of stuff about how you shouldn't listen to people who havn't been teaching dance to beginners for the last 100 years because they know jack-all about it

Originally Posted by marko

It was a bit of a missed opportunity really because as a newbie I would LOVE to know what these expert ladies want us to do to let them know what is coming and make the partner experience as much fun as possible. Being 6ft 2 and not the most graceful of gods creatures I am always concerned about twisting someones arm or wrist.

So, to get to the point, how about a definitive Move-Lead signal discussion to enable us beginners to make dancing with us a nicer place to be!

Compare and contrast the actual question asked with the replies. I think (and I may well be wrong) that Mark was not after a long rant about not teaching signals, that what he was after, in fact, was a useful concrete discussion about what the leader can do to get the follower to do nice things. OK, the thread title may be a little misleading, a beginner may be unaware of the difference between the two (technical) terms*, that should have been cleared up by now, but I really think a lot of you have missed the point... we'll await clarification from Mark...

Dan

* I hope I'm not being patronising, slap me if I am

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by gebandemuishond

Compare and contrast the actual question asked with the replies.

Fair enough. But we need to be clear about the difference between the two, and why it really matters. It's really not just semantics, it's fundamental to the whole question of "How can I be a good dancer?", and it's a symptom of one of the core problems with learning in the standard Ceroc way. In short, it's important.

Yes, arguably this thread shouldn't be in "Beginners Corner" - but then one could also argue that it's never too early to learn the fundamentals.

Originally Posted by gebandemuishond

I think (and I may well be wrong) that Mark was not after a long rant about not teaching signals, that what he was after, in fact, was a useful concrete discussion about what the leader can do to get the follower to do nice things.

Again, fair enough - but unfortunately, getting to that point means that you have to do some hard work, and you need to understand some important principles, such as "What is a lead?". And the best way to get the follower - any follower - to do nice things is to provide a nice lead.

One of the best and worst things about Ceroc is the concept that "anyone can learn to dance in 45 minutes". It's not true. You've got to eat your vegetables before you can have your dessert. And brush your teeth before bedtime. And wash behind your ears. And... hold on, where was I again?

[David Bailey]

That all said...

Originally Posted by marko

...as a newbie I would LOVE to know what these expert ladies want us to do to let them know what is coming and make the partner experience as much fun as possible.

Mmmm. Honestly, it comes back to "provide a good lead". If you do that, everything else comes easily.

But I'd say some general points to remember are:

• Lead 4 moves well rather than 40 moves badly
• Never use force, always invite your partner to move where and how you want to
• Smile

Originally Posted by marko

Being 6ft 2 and not the most graceful of gods creatures I am always concerned about twisting someones arm or wrist.

If in doubt, use a fingertip hold. If you don't think a move is safe, either don't do it, or ask for some advice from a teacher.

[marko]

Originally Posted by gebandemuishond

Compare and contrast the actual question asked with the replies. I think (and I may well be wrong) that Mark was not after a long rant about not teaching signals, that what he was after, in fact, was a useful concrete discussion about what the leader can do to get the follower to do nice things. OK, the thread title may be a little misleading, a beginner may be unaware of the difference between the two (technical) terms*, that should have been cleared up by now, but I really think a lot of you have missed the point... we'll await clarification from Mark...

Dan

* I hope I'm not being patronising, slap me if I am

Hey Dan

Spot on. There does seem to be a fallback comment of 'to be a good dancer you must be a good lead'.

This reminds me of the old phrase '

To understand recursion first you must understand recursion'.

What I was hoping for (and did get in some cases, thanks to all for that) was some real world examples of how to convey to a partner (signal/lead/communicate/ask/request/feel/blah) what is coming next in as clear a way as possible so we can both enjoy the experience of moving to the music. By way of an example. My wife and I have a 'pet' routine we do and both know. Probably a dangerous thing to do you may say (anticiaption etc) but we sometimes do this and both really enjoy it just because the moves flow in that 'muscle memory' way and we get that great 'floating on the music' feeling.

I agree with the comment made earlier about Ceroc claiming you can dance in 45 minutes. You can wobble about and crash into one another but you certainly cant 'dance' in that time. I know I have to be patient and let the experience build, but as was quoted earlier (quite rightly) it is so much easier to learn it right rather than put it right.

Thanks again for all the info, really interesting. Keep it coming!
Cheers
mark

[marko]

Originally Posted by David Bailey

Yes, arguably this thread shouldn't be in "Beginners Corner" - but then one could also argue that it's never too early to learn the fundamentals.

Hmm. So where exactly should it be then? Sorry if it has been posted in the wrong place but a question from a beginner (me) about how to carry out basic communication with a partner struck me as being newbie stuff.

Confused now
Cheers
Mark

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by marko

'to be a good dancer you must be a good lead'.

Or a good follow

Originally Posted by marko

This reminds me of the old phrase '

To understand recursion first you must understand recursion'.

Yes, I see what you mean - but good leading isn't the only component of good partner dancing - there's also posture, style, musicality, connection, chemistry and not having hairy shoulders (apparently).

And, this thread was about leading...

Originally Posted by marko

What I was hoping for (and did get in some cases, thanks to all for that) was some real world examples of how to convey to a partner (signal/lead/communicate/ask/request/feel/blah) what is coming next in as clear a way as possible so we can both enjoy the experience of moving to the music.

The best way of doing this, I think, is to make sure you prepare for the lead in advance of actually doing the lead. This "prep" or "pre-lead" makes it much easier for the follower, who will automatically react to your pre-lead, making the actual move you lead less jerky, feel more smooth, and generally be All Good.

You will probably learn to pre-lead subcounsciously given enough time - that's why most experienced dancers look smooth in their dancing, they use pre-leads a lot. But it's also something you can and should work on consciously.

The difference between me and Amir is that he pre-leads stuff a half-second before I do.

Well, and he's taller. And he's got more hair. And he's better-looking. And he's done dancing professionally. But apart from that...

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by marko

Hmm. So where exactly should it be then? Sorry if it has been posted in the wrong place but a question from a beginner (me) about how to carry out basic communication with a partner struck me as being newbie stuff.

David wasn't complaining about where you posted, more than many of the responses are aimed more at intermediate or even advanced dancers.

Problem is, leading is one of those things where you never stop learning, and it's remarkably hard to look back and put yourself in the mindset of a beginner (at least, I find it hard). So many of the responses are somewhat inappropriate.

(To continue the programming/recursion analogy, it's as if someone asked "how do you calculate a factorial?" and someone replied with C++ code that used template metaprogramming to create a lookup table of factorials at run-time. Yes, it's a very nice solution, but it's not exactly going to help the person asking the original question).

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by marko

Hmm. So where exactly should it be then? Sorry if it has been posted in the wrong place but a question from a beginner (me) about how to carry out basic communication with a partner struck me as being newbie stuff.

Well, the more "technical" discussions tend to get put into Intermediate corner - but I agree, it's never to early to learn the fundamentals, so I'll leave it here.

Originally Posted by David Franklin

(To continue the programming/recursion analogy, it's as if someone asked "how do you calculate a factorial?" and someone replied with C++ code that used template metaprogramming to create a lookup table of factorials at run-time. Yes, it's a very nice solution, but it's not exactly going to help the person asking the original question).

Geek

[marko]

Originally Posted by David Bailey

Well, the more "technical" discussions tend to get put into Intermediate corner - but I agree, it's never to early to learn the fundamentals, so I'll leave it here.


Geek

Geeks of the world unite!