Lead Signals

[marko]

Hello Again
Time for another contentious question!

I have been following a thread elsewhere called 'Does your lead confuse you' (or something like that). It started as an interesting discussion about how newcomer dancers learn to indicate to their (usually more experienced dance partner) what the intended move coming up is.

Unfortunately it deteriorated into a man & beginner bashing fest with comments like 'if you cant lead it dont do it'- this being a more polite example comment.

There was also a lot of pretentious stuff about 'just feeling it' and the difference between a signal and a lead. (surely just symantics?)

It was a bit of a missed opportunity really because as a newbie I would LOVE to know what these expert ladies want us to do to let them know what is coming and make the partner experience as much fun as possible. Being 6ft 2 and not the most graceful of gods creatures I am always concerned about twisting someones arm or wrist.

So, to get to the point, how about a definitive Move-Lead signal discussion to enable us beginners to make dancing with us a nicer place to be!
Cheers
Mark

[Andy McGregor]

There are moves that some teachers will show you have signals. What you are signalling if you use them is that you have been badly taught. It doesn't make you wrong as you can't make up signals, you have to be taught them.

My advice is to find a teacher who teaches you how to lead moves rather than signal them.

Please be advised, there are moves that require a preparation. These preparations are not signals. Signals are necessary where you expect the lady to do something you can not lead - they are useful in some air-steps but need to be practiced and agreed between you. You are unlikely to be taught these moves, no matter how tall you are, at a regular week-night class*.

*If you are taught air-steps at a regular class I recommend you do not stay for the freestyle

[Lee Bartholomew]

Personally, I don't do signals nor do I teach them as they are not really needed for Smooth Jive.

The only time I will do signals is on a move that is a set piece or a drop / aerial. Even then I only do that with Claire so if I done the signal to someone else, they would not know what it means.

[marko]

Hmm. It seems this thread is heading the same way as the one I mentioned earlier. For experienced dancers to just say 'dont signal, just lead' is not very helpful to a beginner trying to convey to an experienced lady dancer that he wants to do a push-spin instead of a wurlitzer, or a catapult not just a right handed rotation/return thing (see, newbie speaking!). And what is the clear, correct way to signal a ceroc spin?

All of these moves have resulted in confusion during the freestyle periods of our club days. I am fully aware it is my fault, I just want to get it right.

Splitting hairs over the synmatics of lead/signal/prepare definitions doesnt really answer the question. However you choose to define the 'communication' between the parties, it does need to exist (communication that is). Question is, what form should it take?

Hope that makes sense
Thanks
Mark

[DavidB]

Try doing a move using a signal eg Neck Break.

Do it a few times, and work out what you have to do with your other hand to make the lady do the same movement.

Then do it without the signal.

You can now do the move with anyone - not just ladies who know the signal. *That* is the difference.

[Lee Bartholomew]

The reason Ceroc Teaches signals is that it makes it easier to remember the moves for the beginners.

The reason other classes teach it, is because Ceroc do it..

Ok, you want to do signals, nothing wrong with it.

Not entirely sure what the question is, but what I would say is to make sure your partner can see the signal. A hand hidden behind the back is of no use to anyone.

If you use signals, try and do they as part of the dance movement. Most people who signal say for a man spin, will just robitically stick their arms out. Try and make it flow.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Originally Posted by DavidB

Try doing a move using a signal eg Neck Break.

Do it a few times, and work out what you have to do with your other hand to make the lady do the same movement.

Then do it without the signal.

You can now do the move with anyone - not just ladies who know the signal. *That* is the difference.

Good bit of advice there on how to ditch the signal. The ladies in general dont move because of the signal, they move because you move them.

As I said, the signals are there to help you remember moves, not to help you do them.

[tsh]

I'm not sure this is an easy subject to discuss via the forum, particularly without disappearing into specific moves, etc. Your best bet is probably to ask the best lead you can find (not just a taxi dancer - ask the ladies who is the best!) to lead you in the move so you can feel it. Some teachers will circulate and do this, but it's very rare.

For a beginner, I'd suggest this is just an idea to bear in mind, rather than an immediate priority. Different teachers will give you different ideas, and the things that work for you will change over time.

As to the difference between signals and leads, consider what happens when your partner has her eyes closed.

Sean

[Lee Bartholomew]

Where are you based Marko? (Firefox is not letting me see the profiles page)

[Spiky Steve]

Originally Posted by marko

Hello Again
There was also a lot of pretentious stuff about 'just feeling it' and the difference between a signal and a lead. (surely just symantics?)


Cheers
Mark

The difference between a signal and a lead is not just semantics. Lee and Andy have given good replies and I will give this just one attempt.

Having experience of being a taxi I see the difference between a signal and a lead every week. For example, Ceroc teach a semi circle signal to indicate to a beginner lady that she is required to step back. Personally I do not like this and aften see the follow struggling to follow this signal. The signal is something she sees with her eyes. If a connection is made using compression and resistance the lead can use the connection to indicate the lady to move backwards with the lead even if her eyes are closed.

Good luck

Spiky

[marko]

Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew

Where are you based Marko? (Firefox is not letting me see the profiles page)

Hey Lee. I live near Buckingham and regularly go to the classes there. I have also been to a few other nearby venues (Bicester, Milton Keynes etc). I guess I have been bitten the the 'pure dance addiction' bug and just want to progress, probably quicker than is realistic to expect.

I hear the advice you give about trying to feel what I am doing (other than the signal) that tells the partner what I am doing and that making it possible to lead with anyone. A big frustration is learning new and interesting moves but not being able to 'communicate' my intention to do them in a clear way.

Thanks for the advice...
Mark

[Lee Bartholomew]

Originally Posted by marko

A big frustration is learning new and interesting moves but not being able to 'communicate' my intention to do them in a clear way.

I don't know of anyone up there off the top of my head.

The 'Communication' just comes with practise and watching how others dance.

The best bit of advice anyone can give on anything dance related (spinning, leading, following, how to do a move etc) is just to get out there and keep doing it till it feels right.

Of course this is no quick fix answer and there are little hints and tips that may help.

[HelenB]

Hi Marko

I too live nr Buckingham (nr Gawcott) but haven't been to Buckingham classes for ages (but now Marc teaches there I might be back soon)

My pic's on my profile - please come and ask me for a dance if you see me

Helen

[StokeBloke]

It is highly admirable thet you want to be able to communicate your intentions to your partner cleanly Marko. I understand that presently means you want clear signals. However, signals are at best a bit of a cludge. The thing to consider is the way people move, the way they shift their weight and how to interupt that to make them travel where you want them to go.

It sounds easy, but when you're starting out and trying to remember which hand to do a Yo-yo with it's anything but easy. The leads here know this - we're not being harsh when we tell you to try not to learn to lead by signals.

I suggest just bearing weight transfer and movement in mind as you learn moves. As for new and interesting moves... I will trot out the old (but true) line that follows prefer something simple that is clearly led and easy to follow than something complex that isn't well lead.

Keep it clean, simple and easy.

[gebandemuishond]

Originally Posted by marko

Hmm. It seems this thread is heading the same way as the one I mentioned earlier. For experienced dancers to just say 'dont signal, just lead' is not very helpful to a beginner trying to convey to an experienced lady dancer that he wants to do a push-spin instead of a wurlitzer, or a catapult not just a right handed rotation/return thing (see, newbie speaking!). And what is the clear, correct way to signal a ceroc spin?

All of these moves have resulted in confusion during the freestyle periods of our club days. I am fully aware it is my fault, I just want to get it right.

Hi Mark,

I can see where you're coming from with all the confusion. Personally, I always got confused with how to differentiate to my follower that I wanted to do a sway rather than a ceroc/ladyspin. I would just take my right hand out to my right and hope for the best. The solution to that was to realise the hand goes to the right in both moves, but with the sway it traces a "J" shape (towards the six-pack, then a swift change to move out to the right). Whereas the ladyspin is led by moving your right hand to the right, without the "hook" of the J, and using the other hand to catch the follower's wrist etc.

You mentioned having problems with catapult vs. return. For a return you just raise your hand towards space above the follower's head (there is probably more to it than this but I don't know what it is - perhaps someone else can help). Anyway, the catapult is different in that you draw your hand towards you to start off, then move it in a big circle up and over, while stepping to your left and bypassing the follower.

Signals are not the best way to teach dance in my opinion, and I believe Ceroc are phasing them out? I heard my local teacher, describing a manspin, say "Now this is NOT a signal, it just helps get your arm out of the way". Who knows.

Anyway, sorry for the length, I hope it helps with some practical advice on how to do some moves, good luck and keep dancing!

Dan

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by marko

As a newbie I would LOVE to know what these expert ladies want us to do to let them know what is coming and make the partner experience as much fun as possible.

In true freestyle, prefer to dance moves that you can dance. This includes being able to communicate them to your partner. Obviously you want to dance the "new and interesting moves" that you are being taught. However, it's more pleasant for the follower if you focus in freestyle on the simpler moves you already know.

The other thing to do is to ask your dance teacher (or taxi, or whoever) to explain how to lead/signal some of the moves they are teaching, and how to distinguish between two similar moves. This can be done in-class, or after-class, depending on the venue.

[David Bailey]

Firstly, I'm sorry if you felt the other thread degenerated

However:

Originally Posted by marko

the difference between a signal and a lead. (surely just symantics?)

Nope - sorry, but at least in this forum, we tend to differentiate between the two.

To parahprase Amir's post here, the difference between a lead and a signal is that a signal could be anything - you could simply raise your left eyebrow to signal your follower to do some insanely complex sequence of steps, for example. But that signal would not be a lead.

Here's a previous discussion on this topic:
Signals....an unavoidable discussion

There are some good points made there (and some posts by me too), which may help to clarify what we generally refer to as "leads" and "signals".

Another good thread from a few years back:
My First thread! SIGNALS

and another:
Hand signals a thing of the past ?

It's really worth reading through these, I think - most of the points made by people are informative and useful.

Finally, as if that's not enough bedtime reading, there are also a couple of threads on the MJDA forum discussing this in some details:
MJDA forum
and
MJDA forum

(I think it's safe to say that those two threads go into enough details to satisfy most people )

[spindr]

There's a few notes at AfterFive :: AfterFive-- I Jive, Lindy, Salsa, Tango,... -- hopefully, some ideas on leading -- and even an appendix on signals :-)

SpinDr

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by StokeBloke

It is highly admirable thet you want to be able to communicate your intentions to your partner cleanly Marko. I understand that presently means you want clear signals. However, signals are at best a bit of a cludge. The thing to consider is the way people move, the way they shift their weight and how to interupt that to make them travel where you want them to go.

It sounds easy, but when you're starting out and trying to remember which hand to do a Yo-yo with it's anything but easy. The leads here know this - we're not being harsh when we tell you to try not to learn to lead by signals.

I suggest just bearing weight transfer and movement in mind as you learn moves. As for new and interesting moves... I will trot out the old (but true) line that follows prefer something simple that is clearly led and easy to follow than something complex that isn't well lead.

Keep it clean, simple and easy.

That's so true - the dance flows so much more smoothly when it's based on weight shift, resistance etc, we don't really have to think about what you want us to do, it just happens - & it's so much more fun! And yes, simple led clearly is lovely - & will give you a great basis for more complex stuff if you want later - but in the blues room at least, listening to the music wins over complex every time - well for me anyway ...
Hope that's not gone off thread... I agree with all that's been said, you'll find as time goes on it'll get easier & you won't need signals as such 'cos you'll understand what really makes the move work...

[geoff332]

In the broadest sense there are two elements to a lead: information and energy.

Information is exactly that: it tells the follow what you want them to do. If they understand what they're being told, they will do it. This means the follow needs to know each signal (including variants) and how to respond. Many ceroc venues teach a half-circle as the signal to start a move. The follow is meant to know this means "step back" - although it's not clear which foot to step back on.

Energy - that's my word, but I prefer it to the other options - is when the lead directs the follow where they want them to go. It usually involves a little bit of force - pushing, pulling, nudging, or the like. It doesn't (strictly) require the follow to know the move, but it does require both partners to maintain a good frame and tension in their arm. The starting step back is led by pushing back; through a good frame, this push back on the hand causes the follow to step back. If you push back to the follow's left side, they should step back on the left foot.

Signals are pure information. Most - but not all - moves can be led without a signal. (There are exceptions, although I've not seen any of them taught in this half of the world).

Most leads are a combination of information and energy (and anyone who knows physics will tell you that energy is information...). With the simple opening lead, any good follow will know that the pressure on the hand is a lead to step back and if they hold their frame, they will naturally step back. But because they know it's a step back, they'll accentuate the initial energy and step back further.

Another good example is a return. I've been to classes where I've been told that you lead a return by lifting your hand (signal). The follow should turn under your hand. Personally, I think this is bad. A return should be led: raising my hand lets the follow know something is going to happen. But the actual return should wait until I actually lead the turn, finishing when I lower my hand. This opens up options for variations on the basic return, which are very, very easy if the follow waits for the return to be led (and the lead does their job...).

A good follow - and a good lead - can use this to lead all sorts of variations. I'm OK at doing this with some people, any not others. But it's a sure sign of a good follow that I can lead them more easily (and they make me look good in the process).