Arm Jive Footwork

This sounds like a beginner question so I'm posting it here.

I'm happy with the basics of the arm-jive and several variations, what I find difficult is the footwork at the beginning. I can never get the first step (and twist to the left) in time. Which means I can't get the next steps in time either. What I want to know is how you do it. It's difficult to explain, but I'm refering to the open walk type of start to the move. I know there are other ways of doing it like a cross step but I find it even harder to do that.

As I see it, this is how the footwork appears to go:

1. Step straight back, say on left foot, and offer right hand for double hand hold.

2. Step back in and twist to left. Left foot steps down as left hand goes to left hip.

3. Step with right foot and twist to right, right hand to right hip.

4. Step with left foot and twist to left, left hand to left shoulder.

5. etc...

(Where the walk is really just a walk on the spot not going anywhere with a twist left and then right...)

I can never seem to get stage 2. done smoothly, I always seem to end up late with the step, whcih makes me late for the next two steps.

the way I normally do it is if I'm twisting to left is to twist on the right foot which sort of forces the left to twist as well and the left knee bends. No real open step at all.

Kinda difficult to explain, and probably doesn't make sense to anyone, but has anyone got any tips for how to do this open walk...

Thanks.

J.

[xSalsa_Angelx]

No does not make a lot of sense, LOL
but i think i know what your on about.

After the semi circle to the left and you step back and offer your right hand, does not matter which foot you step back on (i usually step back on right though)

You do not have to worry about footwork in ceroc, the twisting to the left and right for the arm jive, do nothing with your feet, just twist on the spot, e.g if your doing the twist.

Know the footwork for the song? lets twist again??
kind of similar, just stay on the spot, works for me, and then when you finish the arm jive, step back,

Hope this makes sense..!!!

XsaX

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by xSalsa_Angelx
Know the footwork for the song? lets twist again??
kind of similar, just stay on the spot, works for me, and then when you finish the arm jive, step back,

Any teacher worth their salt will tell you to get onto the balls of your feet, and move them. As advised, ignore this and just twist. As you learn the moves and get practised you will find that your feet are automatically starting to do their own thing, and that you will have some spare brain power to start to guide them into doing the right thing.

I think it was Simon Selmon talking to Debbie Bull who replied to the qustion "What shall I do with my feet" replied "I suggest that you keep them under your body."

[stewart38]

I remember in the old days a common comment was 'there is no footwork in ceroc'

Clearly there is but I suggest beginners concentrate on the rhythm and learning the moves.

I see to much looking at feet

[xSalsa_Angelx]

Originally posted by stewart38
I remember in the old days a common comment was 'there is no footwork in ceroc'

Clearly there is but I suggest beginners concentrate on the rhythm and learning the moves.

I see to much looking at feet

Well being as intermediates ourselves we know there is, but shhhhh don't tell the beginners that

[spindr]

Originally posted by JerryC
This sounds like a beginner question so I'm posting it here.

...

As I see it, this is how the footwork appears to go:

1. Step straight back, say on left foot, and offer right hand for double hand hold.

2. Step back in and twist to left. Left foot steps down as left hand goes to left hip.

...

I can never seem to get stage 2. done smoothly, I always seem to end up late with the step, whcih makes me late for the next two steps.

...

Thanks.

J.

I'd suggest that you might find it easier to step back mostly on the right foot on step 1. Then as you step/swivel on step 2, you can do this naturally by combining the step forwards on the right foot and the swivel anti-clockwise --- as you bring your left hand to your left hip. [To be honest you may find that you end up doing a step in-place on your "wrong/other" foot on the half-beats -- then the count sort of becomes:

a). left: in-place (weight-change)
1). right: backwards
a). left: in-place (weight-change)
2). right: forwards / tap (*)
a). right: close to left (weight-change)
3). left: forwards / tap
a). left: close to right (weight-change)
4). right: forwards / tap
a). right: close to left
...

the hands will be in neutral position on the half "a" beats and close to left/right hip on the whole beats].

It's just a very slow version of "The Twist" [Chubby Checker]

Neil.

(*) Some classes I've been to (in the past) have suggested that the step forwards is almost a "tap" -- which ties in with say closing the feet / stepping in-place on the other foot

[Gadget]

Since I rarely know what variation of footwork the lady is about to do, I cheat :
- In the collection and 'preperation' isn't really important.
- The first 'twist' I use to step closer (either foot) and bring my feet paralell, twisting my hips (knees) in the appropriate direction.
- On this first section I watch what the lady is doing so I can mirror it on the second step.
- if it's a cross-step, then I will move the foot opposite to the hand. On a step, I move the foot with the hand. If there is lots of movement, then I match it. If it's slinky, I close it down.

There are some ladys who move their hips on the beat, and some who place their feet on the beat. This can make it really hard to match her movements. I never initialise any fancey footwork unless I know that the lady can follow it, or it's her usual style.

If I can't get it by the third beat I tend to bail and go into another move.

[Jon L]

Thinking about the move, if I dance it i generally rock to the front of the foot, and turn my hips etc. to the left.

The teacher who started me off, commented failure to move your hips etc, is tree sawing!

I have seen the 'log' walk done to this move as well, but I am not a massive fan of this

You do not have to worry about footwork in ceroc, the twisting to the left and right for the arm jive, do nothing with your feet, just twist on the spot, e.g if your doing the twist.

I know you don't have to worry about footwork but I am choosing to want to learn this style because this is the one that most of the teachers at the classes I go to try to teach, but in my case I haven't yet been teachable. I'm happy enough with my version of "the twist" but want to be able to do other styles as well.

I've tried watching very closely how they do do it but I still can't get into the first step smoothly, so my timing or technique must be wrong. To be honest they move so fast I've never been able to see exactly how they get the first step in. One thing I've noticed with this technique is that they often seem to lean forward quite a bit. And as you say, bigdjiver, the weight is more on the balls of the feet for this style.

I'd suggest that you might find it easier to step back mostly on the right foot on step 1. Then as you step/swivel on step 2, you can do this naturally by combining the step forwards on the right foot and the swivel anti-clockwise --- as you bring your left hand to your left hip.

Neil, I usually step back on the right when twisting, although I've tried the left and found it almost as easy. I'm not really sure I understand what you mean by a foot tap.

With regard to the walk style, don't most ladies step back on both feet? So they must have to do a very quick double step in to get in sync with the walk style.



Gadget, you are right about not being able to tell what the lady is going to do unless you know by having danced with them regularly before. I quite like the "wavy arms" technique that some of the ladies use. Sometimes I get a really out of sync feel when doing the arm jive with some ladies so you're probably right about some of them emphasising a different part of the beat. I must admit that I tend to try and follow whatever style the lady tries although I don't always succeed. Maybe this is an argument for tyring to keep the lead style very balanced and simple. (Twist has the advantage over the Step that you can keep both feet in contact with the floor and so stay more balanced.)

Will practice more and see if I can get it to work.

J

[bigdjiver]

I should explain that I started by trying to to it the teacher way, but had too many bad experiences stepping back onto other peoples feet. One I had got the mechanics of the arm and body movements and the art of being able to decide what move to do next I was freer to use part of my brain on footwork and floorcraft. People with more natural talent may not have those problems.

[spindr]

Originally posted by JerryCNeil, I usually step back on the right when twisting, although I've tried the left and found it almost as easy. I'm not really sure I understand what you mean by a foot tap.

Well, if you step back on the right (leaving the left more or less in place) -- you will find that your right shoulder will move slightly behind your left shoulder, i.e. you will have a slight clockwise twist in your body. This clockwise preparation makes it somewhat easier to swivel anti-clockwise (as you do the first "real" step of the arm jive) when you bring your right foot forwards.

The "tap" was just that one can bring the right foot in front oof the left as you do this first swivel -- you don't have to completely change your weight onto it. Hence, a tap.

To be honest, if you're having trouble -- then get to the front of the class and watch your teachers and try and work out where their weight is during the move.

I think to make it simpler for your leading, you should let the lady follow you and your style. Trying to follow the lady might confuse your lead, etc.

Best of luck,
Neil.

P.S. I guess the "How To Jive" video might be a good gentle introduction -- freeze frame and rewind are often quite helpful

[Lorna]

Originally posted by JerryC
I know you don't have to worry about footwork but I am choosing to want to learn this style because this is the one that most of the teachers at the classes I go to try to teach, but in my case I haven't yet been teachable. I'm happy enough with my version of "the twist" but want to be able to do other styles as well.

Hi,

as one of the teachers in Aberdeen I was teaching the 'open footwork' to someone only last week. She had been struggling with it for a couple of weeks now and finally asked me to go over it slowly.

I suggest that you approach your teacher after the class, (that's what we're there for after all), and ask them to take you through it. It's not easy and it will take a bit of practice.

When I first started dancing ceroc I actually found it easier to do a cross step on an armjive rather than the 'open footwork'.

Good Luck!

Lotsa love Lorna x-x

[eastmanjohn]

To me it all depends on how the previous move finished. If you lead it from a left hand return the guy can take up the lady's left hand with his right hand as she come out of the return.
If he stays forward as she takes her step-back out of the return, the step back becomes the first clockwise twist of the Arm Jive.

This flows much more naturally. You can also go straight into it from a free spin (end of the wurlitzer) or even after a push spin (with the first twist being anticlockwise this time).

If you watch the How To Jive video you will see Simon De Lisle do it this way and it looks and feels great.

Not all moves have to start with a step back!!

Try it, it works.

[Chris]

One thing has occurred to me and that is that many teachers when demo-ing the move at the start of the class will add extra footwork, frequently the 'ocho' cross over step. This involves stepping with one foot across and in front of the other, then lifting up the back foot and stepping in front and across with it (and so on for the rest of the move).

This is a wee optional style add-on, and is easy enough to learn - again, as Lorna said, asking the teacher for a practice (and maybe a follow-up practice the next week) can make it sink in quicker than any theory.

[ theory digression ]
On the theory side (for anyone who's interested), this footwork is interesting because it 'corrects' the natural body rhythm I think that is interrupted by a normal arm jive.

To see what I mean, stand with your arms hanging loosely at your sides and then just walk. You will find that your arms start swinging in the opposite way - ie the right arm swings back as your right foot steps forward. This is the body's natural counterbalance.

In the 'ocho' footwork (so named, I believe, from tango, because of the figure of eight it describes), the momentum is corrected - the slight twist of the body impels the right arm forward at the same time as the right foot goes forward. I think I would argue that this contributes to the more 'balanced' look of the move and one of the reasons it looks so attractive.
[ end theory digression ]

Originally posted by eastmanjohn
To me it all depends on how the previous move finished. If you lead it from a left hand return the guy can take up the lady's left hand with his right hand as she come out of the return.

Another great top tip there - as she comes out of a left handed return, slide your free hand down her left arm from the shoulder, in order to catch her hand - it will just fall into your hand - much easier than 'offering' as she's not well placed to see your hand mid-turn.

Originally posted by eastmanjohn
If you watch the How To Jive video you will see Simon De Lisle do it this way and it looks and feels great.

A great beginner's video by the way! And there's also some top dancing on it (with several Forumites from way back!). As to Simon de Lisle - once you see him as he looks now it's rather amusing to see him dancing as a wee laddie on the video (and dancing v.well btw!)

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Chris
On the theory side (for anyone who's interested), this footwork is interesting because it 'corrects' the natural body rhythm I think that is interrupted by a normal arm jive.

This is an interesting point. (Well - interesting to me anyway.)
The opposing movement of the arms and legs is the natural movement for just about everybody. However the same natural movement does not always seem to apply when being led. If I am holding both hands, and I want the lady to move her right leg forward, I will lead it by moving her right hand forward. I do this a lot when teaching beginners how to do West Coast Swing.

I don't know if the need to counter-balance yourself changes when you have a connection, or whether it just seems more obvious what your partner wants you to do.

David

[Rachel]

Originally posted by DavidB
... I don't know if the need to counter-balance yourself changes when you have a connection, or whether it just seems more obvious what your partner wants you to do.

David

Yes, very interesting comments. For me, though, I think I always feel the need to counter-balance myself, whether I'm connected to a partner or not.

I feel fine moving, say, right foot and right arm together, as long as I can twist my body accordingly. However, that's something Marc tells me I shouldn't do. But trying to stay facing square-on my partner in that situation is something I don't find easy!
---

I found it funny that the arm-jive footwork has been brought up in a thread, actually. I thought I was the only person who had trouble here!

It's a move I always used to feel quite comfortable doing until I started demonstrating and Marc showed me how it 'should be done'. I can't remember what it was that I used to do now, but since learning the 'proper' way - the open footwork - I've always had trouble starting this move too!

I tend to step back on the right at the start of the move, and then twist and place my weight onto my left foot, without actually moving it forward or anywhere. Which is alright but, if I don't watch it, I can end up too far away from my partner since I'm not stepping forward towards them.

I don't really worry about this move in normal freestyle, but I do try to get it right when demonstrating or taxing.
Rachel

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by DavidB
This is an interesting point. (Well - interesting to me anyway.)
The opposing movement of the arms and legs is the natural movement for just about everybody. However the same natural movement does not always seem to apply when being led. If I am holding both hands, and I want the lady to move her right leg forward, I will lead it by moving her right hand forward. I do this a lot when teaching beginners how to do West Coast Swing.

I don't know if the need to counter-balance yourself changes when you have a connection, or whether it just seems more obvious what your partner wants you to do.

Firstly, I suspect the biggest difference is that we treat the "self-caused" feelings of our body very differently from external causes. For example, an arm is several kilos hanging off the shoulder, but that doesn't bother us - we don't even notice. Yet if someone pulls our arm down by just a kilo, we feel it in the shoulder - it's very obvious .

But just on a physics point of view, swinging your arm back actually pulls your shoulder forwards (Newton's 3rd). A lead that pulls your arm forwards also pulls your shoulder forwards (assuming tension in the arm). So the lead is actually closer to the counterbalance movement than you might think.

Dave

[Starlight Dancer]

I've found that just swivelling to face left and right on the push-pull works for me. I don't think of it as a stepping move.

[Dotse]

Yep,

Swivelling makes sense to me too......


It might help to think about it as a bend and swivel to start with (without to much bend), and the bend occurs while facing the front. As you swivel right push your left hand forward and pull your right hand back, but keep the arm movement really small. At the end of this movement (while facing diagonally right) most of your weight is on your left foot. Try pointing the toe a bit on the right foot (the side you are facing), then bend and repeat the bend and swivel.

Saying 'bend and swivel' to the music can help.

This is my Aussie interpretation of the beginner version....my suggestion is to try all suggestions and then go for what feels good, if it still doesn't feel good, try something new, and draw on the teachers and dancers who are usually really helpful when you ask.

Cheers........