Bad Ceroc Night

Rougeforever · 23rd-January-2004, 07:29 PM

Background - it was my third week of ceroc. Had been enjoying it thus far.

Copied from my livejournal:

Last night at ceroc.

We were both really looking forward to the evening. The moves were ok, the manspin, which is easyish for the lady, the octopus, step across and the yoyo pushspin.

Three ok moves, and one killer. The killer in the YYPS for me is the bit where the lady has to spin to the right. Dunno why, but I just have a mental block about spinning that way. I really really had a problem with that, and could only be guaranteed to spin in the correct way when a man pushed my hand quite hard. Anyway. My partner for the first dance in the freestyle is (if you ask me) one of the more lechy men there, but actually a very good dancer and really very FIRM with his signals (every girl's dream).

He got me spinning the right way.

The workshop section didn't go so well for me because there were about 8 new ladies and only about 4 men, so I spent time without a partner in the rotation.

The real problem came with the freestyle. We started to dance, and realised we didn't know what we were doing at all (I need really FIRM signals, remember) and just stood there, embarrassed.

I just had to leave the dancefloor, confidence in pieces and sat down. We managed to sit out of the way of everyone, so I didn't dance with anyone for 5 minutes, and decided to leave and never to return. I think it was a culmination of feeling out-of-breath (not much stamina this week as I was tired), hopeless and rubbish.

We did the worst thing possible and left. It caused friction between the two of us as well. Unwelcome, that.
Still, in the cold light of day I see it as me having fallen off my bicycle. First thing I need to do is get back on it, and get some confidence back.

TheTramp · 23rd-January-2004, 07:49 PM

Don't worry.

I think that most people feel exactly the same way at the start.

It's something new. You sound like you've never done anything like it before. It'll take time. The most important thing to remember, is that you're no different to 100% of the other people when they start out.

Even those who take to it more easily, still have to get past that first step. Some take longer than others, some do get it quickly. But even those people still have to get past the first stage.

It would be a real shame if you gave up now.

My advice would be to not dance with each other too much at this stage. That's very much like the blind leading the blind. At this stage, you both need to try with people that know what they are doing, and can help get you started. Ceroc even provide people that are there specifically to help you do this (taxi dancers).

Also, always remember that it's much harder for the man at the start. Especially when it gets to the freestyle. They've got just a few moves to fill 3-4 minutes of music. They spend most of the time worrying about how their partner must feel, having to do the same moves over and over again. I know. I was there. With salsa, I was there recently.

It will take time. Neither of you is going to be winning any jive championships tomorrow. Or even next week. Give it a serious go. If in a few weeks, you're still not enjoying it, then possibly it's not right for you. But hopefully, you'll get past the first step, and be enjoying it as much as the rest of us who post here.

Look forward to meeting you one day.....

Steve

**DavidB** · 23rd-January-2004, 07:52 PM

Freestyle is a strange thing. When you first try, it seems impossible. When you can do it. it seems perfectly natural. To get from one state to the other usually involves several nights of frustration. Don't worry about not getting it first time. Everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) has problems at first

People learn in different ways. Some things you can try:
- Grab one of the taxi dancers - that is what they are there for.
- Ask the teacher - that is what they are paid to do!
- Just go along for the class for a couple of weeks, and don't try the freestyle.
- Try a beginners workshop.

It took me 3 months of doing Ceroc before I even attempted freestyle. It took me 18 years of Ceroc before I attempted to follow! Therefore after 3 weeks you are doing a lot better than I ever did.

David

TheTramp · 23rd-January-2004, 07:53 PM

Forgot to say.

Get out there, and ask people to dance with you.

Everyone was a beginner once. If they won't dance with you because you are beginners, then it's not your problem. It's theirs! You're not missing anything by not dancing with them.

STeve

TheTramp · 23rd-January-2004, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidB
It took me 3 months of doing Ceroc before I even attempted freestyle. It took me 18 years of Ceroc before I attempted to follow! Therefore after 3 weeks you are doing a lot better than I ever did.

Trust me. You are already a much better follower than DavidB. Without ever dancing with you, I know this.

Steve

Rougeforever · 23rd-January-2004, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheTramp
Get out there, and ask people to dance with you.

Everyone was a beginner once. If they won't dance with you because you are beginners, then it's not your problem. It's theirs! You're not missing anything by not dancing with them.

I know this is really great advice, and normally I would have no problem...

problem is, when you're feeling hopless and your confidence is in shreds it's a tough thing to do.

I should have gone up to a couple of the people I know are kind to beginners (or the lovely taxis) and asked them.

I know I did all the wrong things, but that's how it goes sometimes.

Rougeforever · 23rd-January-2004, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheTramp
Trust me. You are already a much better follower than DavidB. Without ever dancing with you, I know this.

Heh

Actually, my first week I really really struggled with following.

(I assume you mean being led).

I think at one point the taxi was dying to slap me for trying to lead too often.

I blame my career. I'm a project manager - I'm born to lead !

Getting used to it though.... I just need to be led FIRMLY

John S · 23rd-January-2004, 08:05 PM

Everything Tramp and DavidB have said - absolutely spot on.

My own experience was that I couldn't even WATCH the better dancers doing freestyle for about 3 months after I started, because the gap between their ability and mine just freaked me out. (Still does sometimes, but I've come to terms with it!)

The very fact that you've gone back a few times, AND had the courage to come onto the forum and admit how you're feeling, is a good start. I know it's hard to believe, but if you persevere AND do what Tramp and DavidB were suggesting, then in a surprisingly short time you'll find it so much easier to do the beginners' moves.

And yes, there will still be some nights where you just can not get the move that's being taught, don't let that put you off either.

And in a few weeks time (and I know you'll find this hard to believe right now) you'll quite possibly be taking your first intermediate class!!!!!! Come back onto the forum and tell us when it happens!

Rougeforever · 23rd-January-2004, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidB
People learn in different ways. Some things you can try:
- Grab one of the taxi dancers - that is what they are there for.
- Ask the teacher - that is what they are paid to do!
- Just go along for the class for a couple of weeks, and don't try the freestyle.
- Try a beginners workshop.

Thanks, I will.

Am looking at doing a cerocshop in March. i'm hoping by then I'll be able to at least move one arm in time to the beat.

Ceroc would be fine without music

ChrisA · 23rd-January-2004, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheTramp
It would be a real shame if you gave up now.

I would echo Steve's and David's excellent advice.

As a taxi dancer of some years, I promise you that what you're describing is perfectly normal - I can think of quite a few people who started off with the same sort of frustration, yet turned, over time, into lovely dancers.

Once you get your breath back, and can cope with the freestyle again, seek out some of the better dancers - and when you ask them to dance, ask them to keep to simple moves.

Steer away from the show offs that like to do lots of complicated arm-winding intermediate moves (often led very badly, with a smug smile (grrr)) - it's their fault for trying those moves, not your fault after three weeks for not being able to follow them.

The ones that will be the most use to you are the ones that can dance beginners moves well, stick to them and lead them clearly, and don't pull your arms off in the process.

Your other half should do the same thing - seek out some of the better ladies and ask them for a dance. Speaking from personal experience, it's hard asking good dancers to dance in the beginning, but for the most part they can remember that they were beginners once and are pleased to help.

Try not to dwell on this setback - progress in learning to dance isn't always in the right direction - sometimes it's harder than others and other times there are arid plateaus to get across before things start to improve again.

But if you have already enjoyed it at all, I would bet that you will continue to enjoy it - more - as you push through the tough times at the beginning.

Good luck.

Chris

Rougeforever · 23rd-January-2004, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ChrisA
But if you have already enjoyed it at all, I would bet that you will continue to enjoy it - more - as you push through the tough times at the beginning.

You know ? That's a really good point.

I forgot how much I enjoyed it week 2. I wrote:

Before I start, I should tell you that one of the taxi dancers at Solihull looks like Ali Campbell from UB40. In fact the only reason I know he's not Ali is that people call him a different name.

I danced with Ali last week. As Frank Spencer would say "I had a bit of trouble". It's because I'm a project manager. I blame it all on that. Have you ANY idea how difficult it is for me to let a man lead me ? Have you ? Clearly not. I *always* lead. It's my job, and it's in my nature. I am a leader, not a follower. He almost punched me a few times last week for trying to lead.

I was slightly worried (when not having practised at all in the week) I got to dance with him again tonight. He only had to tell me off once. He remembered me, and how traumatic the whole thing was for me last week. He complimented me on how much better I was this week. Bless him. Gotta love Ali. It's not going to make me listen to UB40 though....that would be too, too much.

So then, my second Ceroc.

It was sooooooooooooo much easier than last week. Everything was different. To be perfectly honest I really didn't fancy going because I was so worried about being asked to dance again. All the enthusiasm I had at the end of the class had vanished, and had been replaced by dread.

I went though, because, although I didn't believe it actually would, it's supposed to get easier.

Guess what ? It *was* easier ! We did the arm jive, the manspin, the comb and finished up with the rather unpleasant first move. The arm jive is very easy and isn't really dancing (unless you actually make the effort and dance), the manspin actually has the man doing some work for a change, the comb we remembered from last week, which only left the first move.

I really couldn't get it. It made the catapult look easy. Luckily a lovely man who asked me to dance last week asked me again, and went through the move with me during freestyle. He explained it in terms of opening and closing a door, and I got it. Just.

The beginners workshop was nice. I had so much more confidence - and the taxis (including Ali) were lovely. I love all taxi dancers now. We went through the moves, but actually, with the exception of the first move, I had got them all down already.

Anyway, then to freestyle. I danced with the instructing taxi to a fast song. Phew. Nasty. I only like the slower numbers at the moment. He was good though, and we had a nice dance. I needed a sit down and a glass of water afterwards - it gave me a stitch !

I danced with the lady taxi dancer's dance partner (a lovely brummie who led in a very positive way) and had great fun. I danced with Mike, Matt's colleague, and he taught me the octupus. I also danced with Matt. The whole point of going to dancing is so we can dance together, but at the moment I prefer to dance with others.
It wasn't too bad. He's shaping up to be a good dancer !

I got quite out of breath, as I'm not too fit at the moment (compared to how fit I have been), but I think I'll get a little fitter every week.

It was a great night. The people are so friendly, and everytime you do a move correctly you get more confidence. I even managed to put a few wiggles in of my own during one routine ! (They were noted and appreciated by my partner at the time... I was thrilled !)

We picked up a leaflet for a CerocShop on Sunday 14th March. I think we'll give it a go !

We also picked up a leaflet for a freestyle Saturday night at our local venue in Sat 21st February.
We even showed our Ceroc cards at the door tonight. We're properly cult members now.

TheTramp · 23rd-January-2004, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John S
Everything Tramp and DavidB have said - absolutely spot on.

My own experience was that I couldn't even WATCH the better dancers doing freestyle for about 3 months after I started, because the gap between their ability and mine just freaked me out. (Still does sometimes, but I've come to terms with it!)

Thanks John. First time for everything.

I remember, just after I started, when I was thinking that maybe I was just getting it a little, I went to the Casbah in London. Which was then the place where all the best dancers went (might still be, I haven't been there for quite some time now).

After I'd been there a short time, I left, and swore that I'd not go back there for 3 months, because watching all those people had just totally killed my confidence too.

Anyhow, look at me now, 4.5 years later. And still just a beginner

Steve

ChrisA · 23rd-January-2004, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rougeforever
You know ? That's a really good point.

I forgot how much I enjoyed it week 2.

There you go !!!

I still have crap nights from time to time. I feel terrible when I dance badly

But I feel fantastic when I dance as well as I can.

Yesterday I had lunch with someone that started about 5 months ago, and is getting on really well. She was saying that on Monday she didn't feel she'd danced well at all, and how frustrating it was.

She was right - she hadn't danced quite as well as the previous time I danced with her (or maybe I was just leading worse - that's at least as likely). But I pointed out that three months ago she would have been thrilled to dance as well as she did on her off night.

A big grin spread across her face as she really realised how much she'd improved, and how much more she was enjoying it now.

You'll be the same, I reckon.

Chris

**Dreadful Scathe** · 23rd-January-2004, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rougeforever
It's because I'm a project manager. I blame it all on that.

You sure you're not a writer ? Thats one of the most coherent and ineresting posts to ever appear on this forum. Even including everything theTramp has ever written !

**DavidB** · 23rd-January-2004, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rougeforever
I blame my career. I'm a project manager - I'm born to lead !

So make it feel more natural. Put it on a Gantt chart, set a few milestones. Don't call it freestyle - call it 'refactoring the class paradigm'. You'll be there in no time.

And if you get it wrong, you only have one user to worry about, and he probably didn't notice anyway.

David

**Emma** · 23rd-January-2004, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidB
Put it on a Gantt chart, set a few milestones.

Look...David speaks Liz!!!

Alfie · 23rd-January-2004, 10:50 PM

Yep I think we have all had one of those cant do this, dont want to go any more evenings. Please dont stop going it gets better honest, it does really.
If you are going to ask someone to dance dont be frightened to tell them you are a beginner and tell them you find dancing easier with a " possative " lead.
Try not to dance with your partner too often in a night, Nessie (my wife) and me used to fall out with each other alot when we were learning. This puts a strain on your enjoyment of the night and a strain on a relationship.
If you are going to dance together it helps to dance to music you both like and know really well. Its easier for a lead to concentrate on his moves if the music is really familiar and he knows the beat and the rythm well. The lady just needs to relax and allow herself to be led.
Please keep going as I am looking forward to a dance the next time I get to Solihull

Rougeforever · 23rd-January-2004, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidB
So make it feel more natural. Put it on a Gantt chart, set a few milestones. Don't call it freestyle - call it 'refactoring the class paradigm'. You'll be there in no time.

And if you get it wrong, you only have one user to worry about, and he probably didn't notice anyway.

I think I love you

Yogi_Bear · 23rd-January-2004, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rougeforever
Heh

Actually, my first week I really really struggled with following.

(I assume you mean being led).

I think at one point the taxi was dying to slap me for trying to lead too often.

I blame my career. I'm a project manager - I'm born to lead !

Getting used to it though.... I just need to be led FIRMLY

My wife agrees about needing a firm lead - and she is a project manager too!

**Lory** · 24th-January-2004, 12:37 AM

I had one on Monday

sometimes its not you, you might just get a bad run of 4-5 poor leads

it happens. You won't realise, till you've been dancing a bit longer, who's good and who's poor. Don't alway's asume it's you.

Sometimes there's just something missing from the atmosphere, they haven't played a track that's particularly inspired you and unfortunately, sometimes you look round and think to yourself, Oh my god, there's no one here I really want to dance with!

I ended up going home early, fed up. I felt that was the better option than sitting there, fed up

After paying £7 each for me and my daughter, it was a bit depressing!

BUT THEN, On Wednesday I had one of the BEST nights EVER!

So yes, we all have OFF nights!

23rd-January-2004, 07:29 PM	#1 (permalink)
Rougeforever Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Solihull, West Midlands Posts: 63 Rep Power: 3 Reputation Total: 10	Bad Ceroc Night Background - it was my third week of ceroc. Had been enjoying it thus far. Copied from my livejournal: Last night at ceroc. We were both really looking forward to the evening. The moves were ok, the manspin, which is easyish for the lady, the octopus, step across and the yoyo pushspin. Three ok moves, and one killer. The killer in the YYPS for me is the bit where the lady has to spin to the right. Dunno why, but I just have a mental block about spinning that way. I really really had a problem with that, and could only be guaranteed to spin in the correct way when a man pushed my hand quite hard. Anyway. My partner for the first dance in the freestyle is (if you ask me) one of the more lechy men there, but actually a very good dancer and really very FIRM with his signals (every girl's dream). He got me spinning the right way. The workshop section didn't go so well for me because there were about 8 new ladies and only about 4 men, so I spent time without a partner in the rotation. The real problem came with the freestyle. We started to dance, and realised we didn't know what we were doing at all (I need really FIRM signals, remember) and just stood there, embarrassed. I just had to leave the dancefloor, confidence in pieces and sat down. We managed to sit out of the way of everyone, so I didn't dance with anyone for 5 minutes, and decided to leave and never to return. I think it was a culmination of feeling out-of-breath (not much stamina this week as I was tired), hopeless and rubbish. We did the worst thing possible and left. It caused friction between the two of us as well. Unwelcome, that. Still, in the cold light of day I see it as me having fallen off my bicycle. First thing I need to do is get back on it, and get some confidence back.

23rd-January-2004, 07:49 PM	#2 (permalink)
TheTramp The Forum Legend Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Dundee, Scotland Posts: 10,470 Rep Power: 6 Reputation Total: 1692	Don't worry. I think that most people feel exactly the same way at the start. It's something new. You sound like you've never done anything like it before. It'll take time. The most important thing to remember, is that you're no different to 100% of the other people when they start out. Even those who take to it more easily, still have to get past that first step. Some take longer than others, some do get it quickly. But even those people still have to get past the first stage. It would be a real shame if you gave up now. My advice would be to not dance with each other too much at this stage. That's very much like the blind leading the blind. At this stage, you both need to try with people that know what they are doing, and can help get you started. Ceroc even provide people that are there specifically to help you do this (taxi dancers). Also, always remember that it's much harder for the man at the start. Especially when it gets to the freestyle. They've got just a few moves to fill 3-4 minutes of music. They spend most of the time worrying about how their partner must feel, having to do the same moves over and over again. I know. I was there. With salsa, I was there recently. It will take time. Neither of you is going to be winning any jive championships tomorrow. Or even next week. Give it a serious go. If in a few weeks, you're still not enjoying it, then possibly it's not right for you. But hopefully, you'll get past the first step, and be enjoying it as much as the rest of us who post here. Look forward to meeting you one day..... Steve __________________ "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". (Attributed to Voltaire). Caveat: But reserve the right to tell you if what you say is a load of crap!

23rd-January-2004, 07:53 PM	#4 (permalink)
TheTramp The Forum Legend Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Dundee, Scotland Posts: 10,470 Rep Power: 6 Reputation Total: 1692	Forgot to say. Get out there, and ask people to dance with you. Everyone was a beginner once. If they won't dance with you because you are beginners, then it's not your problem. It's theirs! You're not missing anything by not dancing with them. STeve __________________ "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". (Attributed to Voltaire). Caveat: But reserve the right to tell you if what you say is a load of crap!

23rd-January-2004, 10:50 PM	#17 (permalink)
Alfie Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Stourbridge,West Midlands Posts: 240 Rep Power: 3 Reputation Total: 16	bad nights Yep I think we have all had one of those cant do this, dont want to go any more evenings. Please dont stop going it gets better honest, it does really. If you are going to ask someone to dance dont be frightened to tell them you are a beginner and tell them you find dancing easier with a " possative " lead. Try not to dance with your partner too often in a night, Nessie (my wife) and me used to fall out with each other alot when we were learning. This puts a strain on your enjoyment of the night and a strain on a relationship. If you are going to dance together it helps to dance to music you both like and know really well. Its easier for a lead to concentrate on his moves if the music is really familiar and he knows the beat and the rythm well. The lady just needs to relax and allow herself to be led. Please keep going as I am looking forward to a dance the next time I get to Solihull

24th-January-2004, 12:37 AM	#20 (permalink)
Lory Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: North London Posts: 6,771 Rep Power: 6 Reputation Total: 2934	Bad nights! I had one on Monday sometimes its not you, you might just get a bad run of 4-5 poor leads it happens. You won't realise, till you've been dancing a bit longer, who's good and who's poor. Don't alway's asume it's you. Sometimes there's just something missing from the atmosphere, they haven't played a track that's particularly inspired you and unfortunately, sometimes you look round and think to yourself, Oh my god, there's no one here I really want to dance with! I ended up going home early, fed up. I felt that was the better option than sitting there, fed up After paying £7 each for me and my daughter, it was a bit depressing! BUT THEN, On Wednesday I had one of the BEST nights EVER! So yes, we all have OFF nights! __________________ "If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine

23rd-January-2004, 07:52 PM	#3 (permalink)
DavidB Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,130 Rep Power: 5 Reputation Total: 1417	Freestyle is a strange thing. When you first try, it seems impossible. When you can do it. it seems perfectly natural. To get from one state to the other usually involves several nights of frustration. Don't worry about not getting it first time. Everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) has problems at first People learn in different ways. Some things you can try: - Grab one of the taxi dancers - that is what they are there for. - Ask the teacher - that is what they are paid to do! - Just go along for the class for a couple of weeks, and don't try the freestyle. - Try a beginners workshop. It took me 3 months of doing Ceroc before I even attempted freestyle. It took me 18 years of Ceroc before I attempted to follow! Therefore after 3 weeks you are doing a lot better than I ever did. David

23rd-January-2004, 08:05 PM	#8 (permalink)
John S Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Deepest, Darkest Fife Posts: 1,077 Rep Power: 4 Reputation Total: 173	Everything Tramp and DavidB have said - absolutely spot on. My own experience was that I couldn't even WATCH the better dancers doing freestyle for about 3 months after I started, because the gap between their ability and mine just freaked me out. (Still does sometimes, but I've come to terms with it!) The very fact that you've gone back a few times, AND had the courage to come onto the forum and admit how you're feeling, is a good start. I know it's hard to believe, but if you persevere AND do what Tramp and DavidB were suggesting, then in a surprisingly short time you'll find it so much easier to do the beginners' moves. And yes, there will still be some nights where you just can not get the move that's being taught, don't let that put you off either. And in a few weeks time (and I know you'll find this hard to believe right now) you'll quite possibly be taking your first intermediate class!!!!!! Come back onto the forum and tell us when it happens!