Flirting

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Graham
Just because it's a technique doesn't mean that it's not genuine. Flirting is a social skill which some people just haven't learned: they can't do it even when they want to. By helping them learn the techniques which "come naturally" (=have been learned subconsciously) to others, they can still use them only genuinely, or they can choose to fake it, just as people who acquired the skills without coaching can.

I don't disagree with this.

Maybe I could have been clearer, and said that I was distinguishing between:

- a moment between two people and
- a technique that is applied without such a moment being present.

I don't have any problem with enabling people to be what they are deep down (assuming they want to), but can't be for now because of some inhibition.

Personally, though, I don't like fake, I tend not to do it on the dance floor, and I think I wouldn't like having it done to me.

Like I said, tho, purely a personal preference, not commenting on others'.

Chris

[Gadget]

What exactly is flirting? And how does one Flirt?
I think I know when ladies are being 'over amerous', but smiling, eye-contact and enjoying the dance is what it's all about - is that flirting? Occasionally I do a few UCP moves; is that flirting?

[Graham]

Might I suggest you start here: BBC Would Like to Meet - the book

[Lory]

Originally posted by fruitcake
You have NO IDEA how attractive shyness is, and how attractive naturalness is, much better than being the 'ceroc flirt', give me a shy man over a flirt ANYDAY!

This just goes to show how differently people see things and there's NO right or wrong, its all in the eye of the beholder, so to speak, personally I find Shyness irritating! I know people can't help it but they often come across as abrupt or arrogant!

Example, I was having a great evening, laughing, joking in my usual 'flirtatious' way and I noticed in the corner of my eye this man standing there staring at me, this went on for at least 3 tracks, I tried to ignore it, then suddenly after I'd thanked the last partner for a lively dance, I was walking off and this man grabbed my arm, quite roughly and blurted out 'are you going to dance with me'? So we walked onto the dance floor, I could tell he was nervous so I smiled and tried to make conversation, I like this song, do u? YES, he almost shouted through pursed lips, not looking at me. Erm, try again, how long have you been dancing i asked, 'a year', came the curt reply, he didn't look at me once in the end I gave up, got through the dance, said thanks and went to walk off (he left me feeling cold) then suddenly to my amazement, he grabbed my arm again and asked me for another dance!!! (you've got to be JOKING i thought) no thanks i replied politely, explaining that i needed a drink and a break....

When I told my friend about the 'episode' she said, aww don't be like that, he's just SHYYYY...ARGHHHH


I absolutely love hamming it up, playing maybe the right word and I think that flirting during a dance is great fun and very different to flirting off the dance floor
I would hate to be a man though, it must be so difficult to judge how your flirting is going to be received!

I've had many dances which I've thoroughly loved but I'm sure that some women might have walked off.
I was dancing with this one guy very recently, I've never seen him b4, it was to a very passionate latin track and one of his moves involved him running his fingers up my neck, into the roots of my hair, grabbing a big bunch of it and pulling it back quite assertively, into some kind of drop, where he then held my head still, looked intensely me, starting at my cleavage, then slowly upwards to my eyes, held my gaze there for just a second and pulled me up, at which point i let out a loud involuntary WOO HOO, then we both fell about laughing! (worthy of a slap????) now that's what you call serious dance floor flirting!
The track ended, we laughed and went our separate ways!

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Lory
and one of his moves involved him running his fingers up my neck, into the roots of my hair . . .

For us shy types something like this would never occur to me as being remotely enjoyable for my partner, but it comes into that difficult boundary of what could be flirting, what might be sleaze, how well you know your partner etc. There is only one partner I am ever conscious of flirting with, a good friend of many years, who, as a dancer, will never get "it", and it is patently obvious that there is no romantic connection between us, so it is purely a matter of faking it and having a laugh on the dance floor.

I suppose I'm not really clear on what is meant by flirting, 'cos surely the whole act of dancing is pretty much flirting. At one venue, after I'd had a couple of dances with another friend of some years, this guy (who is a pretty close friend to her) asked "are you two an item?" I had to laugh, and thought "yes, we were getting it right!" But no way did I think there was any flirting going on during those dances.

And Lory, it sounds to me as though your irritating guy was just lacking social skills, not the same as shyness is it?

Greg

[spindr]

Originally posted by Lory
I would hate to be a man though, it must be so difficult to judge how your flirting is going to be received!

It's definitely difficult if you're at a new venue... but you *can* see if the lady keeps smiling and tell if they're relaxed, and feel if they have a good dance frame, and check whether they're likely to be able to follow non-standard moves. If the lady's not following well, or doesn't make eye-contact, or have good compression/tension -- then maybe they won't be used to playing about with the moves, etc. [If you're dancing with me and I start improvising, or leading "strange" moves -- then that's really a compliment ]

And you can throw something in to the dance and see whether you can get a smile back -- and continue from there.
Something'll happen and you might "take the mickey", the lady'll adjust a strap, or comb her hair and I'll do something similar back -- I think the psychologists call it mirroring. Or sometimes, the lady'll take the initiative, e.g. dancing with a new partner at a Salsa venue we were doing "shines" (dancing without a handhold) and my partner does a set of shimmy's -- so (once I get my concentration back) I reply with a body ripple -- and we end up playing about for the rest of the dance, etc.

However, if I'm dancing with a new partner, I tend to do a "straight" first dance, and then ham it up on the second (given that there were no bones broken, etc., etc.) I used to find that at south-west venues people would give each other a second chance -- useful, if you messed up the first one Now, I'm jiving in the south/south-east -- that doesn't seem to be quite so common -- and I must admit I've started assuming I won't necessarily get a second dance now --- so that makes it even more difficult to decide what/how to lead -- and how much/if you can play about, or flirt.

SpinDr.

[Lory]

Originally posted by Sheepman
For us shy types
Greg

Greg, i've never noticed your 'shyness', maybe your slightly coy but NOT shy!

And Lory, it sounds to me as though your irritating guy was just lacking social skills, not the same as shyness is it?

I honestly don't know! I thought he was ODD but my friend suggested I was being mean and made 'shyness' an excuse for him!
Maybe it's me! Maybe I'm just a horrid and intollerant person!

I do find people use shyness all to often an excuse for unfriendlyness, bad manners and getting off the hook from doing something or other!

I'm not really horrid! pwomise!

[Bardsey]

Originally posted by Pete

Any hints or tips?

Its probably easier for a woman I think, cos I flirt all the time. For me, its mainly about eye contact (which I do a lot of) and the smiles, if I get that back from a man then I consider that as harmless flirting.

[Bill]

Originally posted by spindr
It's definitely difficult if you're at a new venue... but you *can* see if the lady keeps smiling and tell if they're relaxed, and feel if they have a good dance frame
SpinDr.

although I commented a little while ago to a woman who had been doing some very energetic dancing that she seemed to have really enjoyed it because she was smiling so much. She replied that the two or three women who danced with this man had hated it but smiled because they were being polite and didn't want to say that he was actually hurting them ... no flirting there........just some pain !

[spindr]

Originally posted by Bill
She replied that the two or three women who danced with this man had hated it but smiled because they were being polite and didn't want to say that he was actually hurting them ... no flirting there........just some pain !

Or it can be from embarassment from too many UCP moves, or for many other non-flirting reasons -- but without ESP, you do the best you can

?Maybe I should have phrased it as, you can tell if the lady looks unhappier dancing with you than when she started?

How many ladies roll their eyes when the man leads them forwards so the the lady has to stop themselves with their hands on his chest (again (and again))? If you aren't watching you might miss it

SpinDr.

[Pete]

Originally posted by Lory
one of his moves involved him running his fingers up my neck, into the roots of my hair, grabbing a big bunch of it and pulling it back quite assertively, into some kind of drop, where he then held my head still, looked intensely me, starting at my cleavage, then slowly upwards to my eyes, held my gaze there for just a second and pulled me up, at which point i let out a loud involuntary WOO HOO

ohmygoodgawd I would LOVE to be able to pull off a move like that with a bit of panache.

It's funny how often smiling is mentioned in connection with flirting. I smile a lot if I'm enjoying the dance, but I wouldn't call it flirting. Last week at Fulham during the intermediate class we were doing one of those moves where the woman leans backwards (drops? seducers?) and the woman I was learning the move with let out a little squeal as she leant backwards, we both cracked up and as she moved on she gave me a little hug. And I wouldn't have said there was anything flirtatious about it - it was just friendly and smiley. I thought flirting was a bit more, I dunno, cheeky or maybe even *steamy*(?) Smiling and looking at each other counts as being friendly to me (which is not to say that I don't find that difficult sometimes if faced with some high powered dance goddess...).

And thanks for all the tips and insights

[fruitcake]

Originally posted by Lory
This just goes to show how differently people see things and there's NO right or wrong, its all in the eye of the beholder, so to speak, personally I find Shyness irritating! I know people can't help it but they often come across as abrupt or arrogant!

Oh I agree Lory, but there is a difference between shy and rude.
Staring is rude, trying to summon up the courage without staring is shy!!!

I used to be shy (yes its true) but NEVER rude-honest. A smile is all that's required.
i like a shy man cos I want one I can boss about!
Oh maybe i shouldnt say that in view of all to see- thinking aloud there!!!

[Gary]

Originally posted by Lory

I was dancing with this one guy very recently, I've never seen him b4, it was to a very passionate latin track and one of his moves involved him running his fingers up my neck, into the roots of my hair, grabbing a big bunch of it and pulling it back quite assertively, into some kind of drop, where he then held my head still, looked intensely me, starting at my cleavage, then slowly upwards to my eyes, held my gaze there for just a second and pulled me up, at which point i let out a loud involuntary WOO HOO, then we both fell about laughing! (worthy of a slap????) now that's what you call serious dance floor flirting!
The track ended, we laughed and went our separate ways!

I didn't think I was shy until I read this, but apparently I'm very shy indeed, because I'd only try moves like that with my girlfriend.

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by Gary
I didn't think I was shy until I read this, but apparently I'm very shy indeed, because I'd only try moves like that with my girlfriend.

I don't think that makes you shy Gary, just very wise

[Lory]

Originally posted by Sheena
I don't think that makes you shy Gary, just very wise

I agree with you Sheena, after writing about that incident, it got me thinking.....

I don't think many guys could have done that move and gotten away with it. I don't know what it is but some guys just CAN get away with being cheeky and some can't, maybe it's back to the confidence thing.

With some people, you just instinctivly know, its an 'act' and it's 'fun' but another person could do the same move and probably make my skin crawl

As I said before, Poor men, Love em but I wouldn't want to be one!

[jivecat]

i like a shy man cos I want one I can boss about!

Believe me, Fruitcake, shy does not necessarily equal pushover, as I know from bitter experience!

[Bill]

Originally posted by Lory
I don't know what it is but some guys just CAN get away with being cheeky and some can't, maybe it's back to the confidence thing.

With some people, you just instinctivly know, its an 'act' and it's 'fun'

yep..........and Nigel has been getting away with it for years

[quiet_flame]

Being young and adventurous, I think I've gotten myself into more than just a little bit of trouble to do with flirting on the dance floor. I'm Flirty by nature, I know it, I Flaunt it... Got to do with character methinks.

But serioiusly, flirting is a natural part of dance, at least for me.

As far as I know, it has to be cos sooooo many partnerships, life and dance grow out of Ceroc... Just an observation

[Pammy]

Originally Posted by spindr

when the man leads them forwards so the the lady has to stop themselves with their hands on his chest (again (and again))?

I actually really hate that move. As soon as it starts I think "oh no". I just don't think it even looks good when you're watching it.

As for flirting. Depends what the person doing the flirting is doing it for. Sadly a lot of relationships end on the dance floor due to flirting... I remember seeing one lady going "round" doing freestyle a few weeks back. She was flirting away with ANY man she could get her hands on. I don't mean smiling or being a bit cheeky, I mean full-on "I'm up for whatever you're up for". To me that's horrible. At one point she got a man and he pulled her into a move and she was actually feeling his "sausage" through his trousers, quite obviously on the dance floor.

I hate behaviour like this. It spoils it for others around and it is exactly what puts off beginners. Newbies look on thinking "god, this place is full of perverts".

I brought a couple of newbies with me recently and they reminded me just how scarey it is your first week etc. Seeing an incident like I've just mentioned puts new people off ever coming back and it saddens me.

My opinion: Just dance, keep your hands to yourself and know the limits of what is and isn't acceptable, and indeed what those around you want to see and don't want to see. A kiss and cuddle is fine. Sleaze, in my opinion, isn't.

[Bardsey]

Originally Posted by Pammy

As for flirting. Depends what the person doing the flirting is doing it for. Sadly a lot of relationships end on the dance floor due to flirting... .

Originally Posted by Pammy

I remember seeing one lady going "round" doing freestyle a few weeks back. She was flirting away with ANY man she could get her hands on. I don't mean smiling or being a bit cheeky, I mean full-on "I'm up for whatever you're up for". To me that's horrible. At one point she got a man and he pulled her into a move and she was actually feeling his "sausage" through his trousers, quite obviously on the dance floor..

Ohmygod! Blimey! I'm surprised she wasn't turfed out of the place!