Tips for (beginner) Guys

[ChrisA]

Replying to this is a bit of a case of "fools rush in where angels fear to tread", but hey, I'm a fool...

Originally posted by Jayne
[climbs onto soapbox] See, I do this (apologising - Ed)

and I usually get a refusal of the apology and annoyance for me apologising in the first place.

No excuses for the annoyance, but if a guy can lead well, and the lady can follow well, the guy should know when it was his failure to lead, rather than the girl's failure to follow. And if he can't lead well, he should assume it's his fault and put more effort into learning to lead.

Many, many times, a girl's apologised to me for failing to follow - I've refused the apology, and later in the dance led the move much better - and she followed with no problem at all.

I think in many cases, the ladies think it's their fault when in fact the guy should have started the lead just a fraction earlier to give the lady's body time to respond.

Given that Jayne is an excellent follower, it seems entirely appropriate that guys should decline her apology 99% of the time at least.

Chris

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Rachel
The worrying thing is if I'm the only lady guys feel the 'need' to say this to. - i.e. why can't I manage to move as well as all the other sexy ladies out there??

The only reason I can think on for leads to say something like that would be that they have seen you do a sexy walk and want to lead you into the same thing... "now do that sexy thing you do..." not perhaps the most polite way, but it does prove that they all think you move sexily or/and have sexy moves.

Need to test the theory myself

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Gadget
The only reason I can think on for leads to say something like that would be that they have seen

The only reason I can think of for leads to say something like that would be that they are a complete muppet.

Chris

[Gadget]

well, yes... but I still want to test my theory

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Jayne
I do this and I usually get a refusal of the apology

Oh sorry, have I been apologising too much, sorry, it won't happen again, sorry, or well if it does, I'll apologise, sorry

Greg

[spindr]

Originally posted by Jayne
See, I do this and I usually get a refusal of the apology and annoyance for me apologising in the first place.

IMHO, if something goes wrong then yes an apology's due -- it's just quicker and easier for the leader to offer one -- and hopefully the follower will forget about the problem and maximise the time I get to dance with them, rather than sorting out who's fault it was. So, yes I might say "No, no it's my fault" -- when what I'm thinking is "Wow, she's fun to dance with, let's get on and see if we can do something else instead."

I tend to the school of thought that goes:
if the lady does something wrong, it's because the man led it wrong
if the man does something wrong, it's because he danced it wrong.

(Of course, if you can't do the move I picked that probably means I should have done something else -- and my move selection was in fact in error.)

Anyway, I'd like to offer profuse apologies for this apology and any offence I may have caused

SpinDr.

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Rachel
(I'll look forward to trying a sexy dance with you, though!)

but as ChrisA implies, you need to try!

Greg

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Sheepman
but as ChrisA implies, you need to try!

Greg

I think you'll find I (rather more than) implied that she doesn't need to try

Dance with me, Rachel, instead of that old git

Chris

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by ChrisA
I think you'll find I (rather more than) implied that she doesn't need to try

I feel an apology coming on, for dodgy punctuation, (just like leading, precision is essential) it should have been:-

you need to try?!

Greg

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Jayne
[climbs onto soapbox] See, I do this and I usually get a refusal of the apology and annoyance for me apologising in the first place. [climbs down from soapbox]

Tee hee hee - I'm quoting myself now...

I've just been in a seminar so I've had time to think about this...

Is my apology akin to the suggestion of asking for directions when a guy is lost? i.e. by asking for directions/apologising for an incorrect move the woman implies that the man is incapable of completing a simple task. Therefore he assumes (incorrectly) that she thinks he's useless and that he'll not gain her respect?

Clear? Anyone who's read the book will know what I'm talking about...

J

PS Chris

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Pretty much 100% of the time, dancing takes 100% of my attention. It's one of the reasons I love it so much.
s

indeed, i thought this was a strange comment as well, if dancing required much thought i wouldnt be able to do it at all

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Jayne
Clear? Anyone who's read the book will know what I'm talking about...

Sure, but you're missing a vital point... many men are incapable of completing a simple task.



Chris

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Sure, but you're missing a vital point... many men are incapable of completing a simple task.

why try to complete a simple task when you can mess up a complicated one much more spectacularly

[Jayne]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Sure, but you're missing a vital point... many men are incapable of completing a simple task.

Girls: did anyone else notice the mistake in the sentence?

J

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
why try to complete a simple task when you can mess up a complicated one much more spectacularly

[Jon]

Originally posted by Rachel
Pleeeese don't say: 'Now give me a sexy walk …'/'Now do this sexily …'

Rachel, after the sexy walk are we allowed to say "What was that!"

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally posted by Jooles


I find that dancing with a really good dancer is not only great becasue they dance well, but because they are far more likely to smile when something goes wrong.

Great, in that case there is hope for me yet!
Seriously, though, that'sa good point.....

[Gary]

Thanks Gadget for the feedback

Originally posted by Gadget

3. Smile, relax, have fun. this should be first on the list - if you're not having fun, then you're not dancing.

I'm going to stand by my ordering here: if a guy's having fun and relaxed, but stinky and/or dangerous, I don't want him on the floor.

6. Hang in there. 8. Practice lots. I don't agree with the text under 6, but I do agree with the sentiment.

Can you expand on what about the text you disagree with?

I also think that a "Don't stop dancing" should be included in this rule - if you screw up, if your partner does something unexpected, if you can't remember what to do... don't stop!. It helps develop freestyle instincts and quicky releases you from the "panic mode" areas of dancing.

Good call.

I would also include something about asking as many (different) people to dance as you can ...

Think I covered that in point 8.

4. Take responsibility. 1. Protect your partner! One and the same thing

Agreed. I split them up to emphasise the "partner safety" aspect.

5. Find the beat. 12. (Advanced tip): Listen to the music. again I'm not sure I agree with the text, but the idea of listening to the music and being aware of it is sound.

Again, can you expand on how you disagree with it?

7. Get feedback. I think that this should only be done for one or two dances in an evening, or only at the end of a dance: worrying about "am i doing this right/that right" is more liable to produce less confident dancers. Personally I think that the only "feedback" dances should be with teachers or taxis.

Tricky. Some guys could end up overdoing the asking for feedback thing and being a pain (maybe I do ). I disagree that only teachers/taxis can give good feedback -- I'm constantly getting (non-verbal) feedback from every girl I dance with, and in class I'll usually check with whoever I'm dancing with if I'm not sure if I'm leading something smoothly.

Possibly a few little tips here like keep your knees slightly bent, esp on turns" and "don't take too big a step back - use your body to give the illusion of distance if necessary" may be included.

Yeah, think I'll include something like this, and ditch (as you suggest) the "remember to help beginners later" tip (at least for now).

I also notice that you are preaching only to leads - all the points above are applicable to followers as well (I think).

I guess a lot of them are. I'm way underqualified to suggest tips for followers (which makes me scared about being a revision teacher).

[bigdjiver]

for brevity:
Keep moving, keep smiling, keep fresh, keep safe.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Gary
Thanks Gadget for the feedback

well, you did ask

I'm going to stand by my ordering here: if a guy's having fun and relaxed, but stinky and/or dangerous, I don't want him on the floor.

As I said, I don't think this is so mush a tip for dancing as a general footnote that covers all aspects of entering into a social situation - especially one where close physical presence is manditory.

Can you expand on what about the text you disagree with? {section 6:Hang in there}
The first six to ten weeks are very challenging. It gets lots easier. Aim to learn one move each week. With six moves, you can freestyle.

OK, first off, you're putting numbers against things that differ for every individual - best to be as vague as possible: some people will pick it up after a couple of classes; some may not untill a month or two. Both cases prove you to be incorrect and weaken your position as a teacher.
Same with the number of moves to freestyle: you don't need that many - after all, most classes are built from four moves so that you can dance them in freestyle. I think that this sentance will put people off even attempting to dance in the freestyle section untill they are confident with X no. of moves - and they will take longer to get confident if they are not dancing in freestyle.
I agree that learning the moves and the routine becomes easier with time {hell, after five? years of it I still mess up the beginner's routine. } Your best solution I think is just to sympathise and reassure that it does get easier and their are only so many moves (they get repeated).

Think I covered that in point 8. {asking people to dance}

you said If you dance one song each with every girl in the room... I would probably emphisise this saying that it's good practice and you will seldom get rejected (and if you do, just to move onto the next).

Agreed. I split them up to emphasise the "partner safety" aspect.

I was just trying to condense it - too many rules make Jack a dull boy I think that the old K.I.S.S. guideline should always be applied when addressing people: If they want to know more, they will ask (you just have to dangle the right worm on the hook to get them to ask - that's the trick )

Again, can you expand on how you disagree with it? {5:find the beat}
Practice every time you hear music. Find the on-beat/off-beat. Learn where you are in the 8-count.

I think that this is way too advanced for beginners and doesn't really matter since very few moves are actually an eight count: Possably count 1.2.1.2.1... but why does it matter where you are? That and a lot of songs tend to throw you by inserting another count. Ask The Orical about beats, off-beats, counter-rhythm etc. - he ran a good leacture {sorry, "workshop" } on it.
Similarly, knowing where the on/off beat is in a track is pointless untill you have the moves to play with. I think that the best advice was in the first sentance; practice every time you hear music. Tap your fingers, twiddle fingers, nod your head, ... actually listen to the music and practice in your head.