Keeping hold without using thumbs - HOW?

[Almost an Angel]

Originally Posted by Gus

Funny ..I've been trying to teach lead/follow in a number of differnt mini-workshops over the last month. The dancers have ranged form beginners to experienced dancers ... and I'm surprised at how hard it is to get people to relax the grip and yet not over-anticipate. I think it comes back to sage words said elsewhere .. we teach people the dance before we teach them the basic of how to. (or something like that).

When teaching beginners we always try to run through the basics of lead and follow so they know how what they're supposed to be doing, even if it takes them a few weeks for it to click into place. We use a few exercises to re-inforce the lead and follow principal.

There is the very basic train buffers approach - ensuring the lady provides an equal and opposite force to the leaders while they move forward and back, however you can take this on a step by introducing trust into the equation by having the ladies close their eyes and do the same again. The difference is the lady cannot anticipate as she cannot see and learns to trust and follow the leader rather than race them.

[spindr]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

One of the things I need to lead is the difference between "we are connected, please don't let go" and "we are no longer connected, please don't hold on". Having too weak a hold can make that distinction unclear. Conversely, if I'm having trouble leading the difference to my partner, I can compensate by increasing the strength of my hold.

First thought, take your hand away quickly if you don't want the lady to take it again.

Second thought(?), use less fingers and keep the ones in use long and straight when you want to release hold (don't keep them hooked) -- even if the lady keeps grip it makes it much easier to slide your fingers out of her hand.

Alternatively, try making breaking the handhold really clear -- at least one teacher used to suggest throwing the lady's hand away like a frisbee, when leading spins.

Moves like hallelujahs and combs have a natural "breakage" in them, if all else fails lead one.

SpinDr.

[MartinHarper]

If I increase the temperature of my room from 5° to 6°, I am increasing the heat of the room, yet the room is still cold.

[Gadget]

eh?

[Trousers]

I'm probably gonna get slated for this but I USE MY THUMBS

I indicate a whole range of things half of them without noticing such as

OI! I'm trying to be in charge now!

There was a beat there!

Don't let go again!

NO! I said don't let go!!!

Watch out something different is going to happen.



But what I don't do is make a permanent grip. Surely the point of the no thumbs rule-ette is to allow free movement of hands.

I feel this is more of a rule for the ladies because of the lead potential of my opposing digit. Having said that as every bloke knows when he dances with a woman who knows her onions and dance floor awarness a swift thumb nail in the back of your hand can often save you from being stomped on by the couple behind.

So come on lets hear it for thumbs.
Evolution took a long time to give them to us - lets give 'em the respect they deserve.

[latinlover]

Originally Posted by Trousers

I'm probably gonna get slated for this but I USE MY THUMBS

I indicate a whole range of things half of them without noticing such as

OI! I'm trying to be in charge now!

There was a beat there!

Don't let go again!

NO! I said don't let go!!!

Watch out something different is going to happen.



But what I don't do is make a permanent grip. Surely the point of the no thumbs rule-ette is to allow free movement of hands.

I feel this is more of a rule for the ladies because of the lead potential of my opposing digit. Having said that as every bloke knows when he dances with a woman who knows her onions and dance floor awarness a swift thumb nail in the back of your hand can often save you from being stomped on by the couple behind.

So come on lets hear it for thumbs.
Evolution took a long time to give them to us - lets give 'em the respect they deserve.

[Clive Long]

I'm strictly of the "no-thumbs" camp.

For some reason it really irritates me.

I feel beginners grip on for dear life so they can feel connection. I apologise, but I always comment on the "thumb vice" to a beginner and show them a way to hold securely but "flexibly".


I know Ceroc / MJ has the philosophy "come to one lesson and you'll be dancing by the end of the evening". I applaud this roundly as (in my purely subjective opinion) people are put off any form of dance by too much early focus on technique which always impies correcting what the person is doing, which can be taken as criticism (unless you are as thick-skinned as me). Also too much technique early on is information-overload and gets in the way of the main point of the whole thing - enjoyment

However.

I feel that beginners' classes should always comment on appropriate hand holds. The "Modern Jive for beginners" video describes a simple hold well.

Pushing my luck, in my opinion beginners classes should comment on VERY Basic feet placement - left foot here, right foot there IF it makes the move flow better. But LESS IS MORE in the feet area.

That's it from me.

Clive

[Minnie M]

Originally Posted by Clive Long

I'm strictly of the "no-thumbs" camp.

For some reason it really irritates me.

I feel beginners grip on for dear life so they can feel connection. I apologise, but I always comment on the "thumb vice" to a beginner and show them a way to hold securely but "flexibly".

I am a little confused Clive - I thought the "thumb vice" was a lead thing didn't realise that followers did it too - or am I wrongly assuming that you are a lead

[Baruch]

Originally Posted by Minnie M

I am a little confused Clive - I thought the "thumb vice" was a lead thing didn't realise that followers did it too - or am I wrongly assuming that you are a lead

If Clive's experience is anything like mine, then the answer is definitely YES. Followers do it too. In fact, I've nearly had my arms wrenched out of their sockets many times by ladies who held on with the "iron grip of death" - and I'm not just talking about beginners either

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Baruch

Followers do it too. In fact, I've nearly had my arms wrenched out of their sockets many times by ladies who held on with the "iron grip of death" - and I'm not just talking about beginners either

......

Personally I don't subscribe to the school of thought that seems to require the guy to be immune to pain.

If she hurts me enough (which isn't all that much, I'm only a guy, after all) I'll tell her to stop gripping, and if she won't, it's wet haddock time

Chris

[Clive Long]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

......


If she hurts me enough (which isn't all that much, I'm only a guy, after all) I'll tell her to stop gripping, and if she won't, it's wet haddock time

Chris

Wet Haddock

How do you lead that !?

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Clive Long

Wet Haddock

How do you lead that !?

Not telling you till tomorrow. You said you weren't gonna post no more tonight

[MartinHarper]

When women grip on, my problem is normally that by doing so they are interfering with the lead/follow, rather than causing actual pain. They tend to grip using fingers and palm, rather than a "thumb vice". When leading a "gripper", I try to make a conscious effort to keep my fingers and thumb together, and avoid any fancy one-fingered leading, lest I lose a digit.

It does seem that men are more prone to gripping on than women. I suspect this is because when a woman holds on she rapidly discovers that she can't easily follow moves with push spins, etc, whereas when a man grips on, the only indication that he's doing something wrong is the gritted teeth of his partner.

[Baruch]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

When women grip on, my problem is normally that by doing so they are interfering with the lead/follow, rather than causing actual pain. They tend to grip using fingers and palm, rather than a "thumb vice".

Oh, I don't know. I've come across quite a few who use the "thumb vice" quite strongly. Then we're talking actual pain. Normally I'm happy to dance with anyone of any level, but when it comes to persistent thumb-grippers, if they're still like it after a few weeks (or even months) then I stop asking them to dance. That way I don't go home with aching shoulders or elbows at the end of the night.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

When leading a "gripper", I try to make a conscious effort to keep my fingers and thumb together, and avoid any fancy one-fingered leading, lest I lose a digit.

When leading a "gripper" I find that one-fingered leading is a really good technique to counter the problem, as you can break contact much more easily. ( Thanks to DavidB for teaching me this )

[BeeBee]

Originally Posted by JamesGeary

Make your hand kind of like a hook.

Simple but effective!

Beebs

[johnthehappyguy]

Originally Posted by Graham

When leading a "gripper" I find that one-fingered leading is a really good technique to counter the problem, as you can break contact much more easily. ( Thanks to DavidB for teaching me this )

Hi Graham,

I have some difficulty with "grippers" too.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain any particular technique to avoid getting your one finger pulled off.

I will be in Glasgow tonight, as there is no dancing in Edinburgh thias week, and so will try to look you up for advice.

thanks,

Johnthehappyguy

[Graham]

Originally Posted by johnthehappyguy

I will be in Glasgow tonight, as there is no dancing in Edinburgh thias week, and so will try to look you up for advice.

Great - look forward to seeing you there.

[johnthehappyguy]

thanks Graham for your words of wisdom,

Your demonstration of the technique made me feel like a right numpty.

So simple.

I did try to take your advice, keeping my digit in a good direction. I guess it is another thing for me to try to concentrate on while dancing, until it becomes second nature.

I did not have to use the retraction technique you described, as the dancers were all so good, with no grippers around.

Dancing in Glasgow is a real joy as there are so many brill dancers.

thanks again for your help and advice.

johnthehappyguy

[Graham]

Happy to help, John - glad you found it useful! That's what taxis are here for!