Keeping hold without using thumbs - HOW?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

OK, we all know we shouldn't ever grip on with our thumbs, but some moves require 'keeping hold' at a point where its a different move if you let go.

Just use your thumb.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

OK, we all know we shouldn't ever grip on with our thumbs, but some moves require 'keeping hold' at a point where its a different move if you let go.

Just use your thumb. (lightly)

[Minnie M]

wot is goin' on

[bigdjiver]

It would appear that someone has worked out that if leading novice ladies without any form of grip that some of them will disappear off in their own selected direction every so often. If the leader insists on "no thumbs" it is just one more thing that a newcomer has to contend with, along with a new environment, culture and people. One more barrier between them being simply able to enjoy dancing.

Sadly, they do not seem to be able to express this view even under a forum name, perhaps because this forum is mostly populated by people much further up the ladder, who do not remember stepping on the rung marked "thumbs", or being grateful that it was there.

[senorita]

Originally Posted by Clive Long

Wet Haddock

How do you lead that !?

[johnthehappyguy]

Dealing with grippers - holding onto your hand too tightly -has been covered on this thread.

However I have encountered a more serious manifestation of gripping.

I was asked for a dance by a lady who is able to follow plenty of intermediate moves. Several times during the dance, she grasped my wrist when my hand was above her head.

This happens every time we have danced together, and I find it difficult to deal with.

Any advice ?



johnthehappyguy

[Banana Man]

Originally Posted by johnthehappyguy

Dealing with grippers ............. she grasped my wrist when my hand was above her head.

This happens every time we have danced together, and I find it difficult to deal with.

Any advice ?



johnthehappyguy

Say something - even if it's only ouch!

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by johnthehappyguy

Several times during the dance, she grasped my wrist when my hand was above her head.

How?
The only time that your hand should be above the lady's head is when she is turning under it; normally when only one hand is used, the lady pivots arround a loose finger or slides palm over palm. Is it the spare hand that grabs? Or sliding from a palm/palm lead?

[johnthehappyguy]

Originally Posted by Gadget

How?
The only time that your hand should be above the lady's head is when she is turning under it; normally when only one hand is used, the lady pivots arround a loose finger or slides palm over palm. Is it the spare hand that grabs? Or sliding from a palm/palm lead?

It does seem a bit bizarre.

We are both fairly tall, she slightly shorter than me

Doing a simple basic first move, as I lead the return, the lady is supposed to pivot loosley around my finger(s).

However as I bring my hand up (medium pace of track) she loses contact and then clamps my wrist.

I have not had this type of difficulty with any other lady, and am told I am a reasonable lead ( at least for beginners moves.)

I suppose that I must be bringing my hand up too fast for her in particular, and for her I should be doing it slower.

It is very disconcerting once it happens, as the clamping effectively stops me from moving anywhere for fear of injury.



johnthehappyguy

[Gadget]

If you are loosing contact, then yes; there is something wrong:

- Make sure that the lead into the exit is clear; return your right hand to your shoulder before taking it to turn the lady out. If you are lazy in this lead, it will show on the exit.

- Use the right hand on the hip to guide the lady into the turn infront of you rather than relying soley on the hand; it gives greater control of her position on the dance floor.

- Try to be conceous of applying constant tension in the initial fragment of the lead out; leading away from your body slightly before raising the hand and deminishing the tension smoothly to nothing when it's above her center.

- Use a "pivot finger" rather than a "full hand slide" method for maintaining contact above the lady's head; more controll and less room for miss-interpretation.


Alternativly, treat it as a hi-jack; you have been blocked. Your turn to follow.

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by johnthehappyguy

A simple basic first move, as I lead the return [...] as I bring my hand up (medium pace of track) she loses contact...

Options:
* Use your thumb/palm on the back of her hand. IE, grip more.
* Push your fingers into the base of her hand during the step immediately before the return. More friction, so harder to lose contact.
* Wait. She'll become a better follower in due course.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Options:
* Use your thumb/palm on the back of her hand. IE, grip more.
* Push your fingers into the base of her hand during the step immediately before the return. More friction, so harder to lose contact.
* Wait. She'll become a better follower in due course.

Further option: speak to your partner, she's human and will respond in a positive manner if you're friendly/jolly and make light of it

[johnthehappyguy]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

Further option: speak to your partner, she's human and will respond in a positive manner if you're friendly/jolly and make light of it

thanks for your advice everyone.

I was going to wait until I met the lady again so I could say it worked.

I have not met up with her again -yet !

thanks,
johnthehappyguy

[drathzel]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

* Wait. She'll become a better follower in due course.

Is this always the case?

[MartinHarper]

My experience is that beginner women either become intermediates in due course, or they leave - but you'd have to ask more experienced leads than I for a definitive answer.

[LMC]

Thread resurrection...

Is it just me, or is there an epidemic of death grips at some venues?

I have taken action. There has been more than one occasion where I have asked the taxi dancers to cover 'handhold' (again) in their review classes, and asked the teacher to 'remind' intermediates that thumbs should not be used. Last night was one of those occasions. OK, I'm going to name and shame: Finchley. Hell, even one of the (female) taxi-dancers was over-using her thumbs, wish I'd said something, but see below....

At one venue I used go to regularly (and now infrequently), the problem is so bad that at one stage, I was convinced that it was my connection that was at fault - it's certainly not perfect, but I can maintain it just as well with leaders who don't feel the need to use their thumbs, so it can't be that awful.

The worst thing is that if I do venture to say something - and I *do* try to be nice - I often get a "No-one else has ever said anything..." reaction. And, unlike me, they have been dancing for over (number) year(s) - or are a taxi-dancer - so they must be right... So most of the time now I just grin and bear it, unless my fingers really are being wrenched. Even if it doesn't actually hurt, a 'too tight' handhold can throw the follow off-balance (well, it can me...)

It never seems to get better - even after Adam mentioned the whole 'thumb thing' in last night's lesson guys were *still* doing it.

If all of us who get hurt by thumbs actually *say something* (including me - I don't often enough) then maybe we'll get somewhere?

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by LMC

Last night was one of those occasions. OK, I'm going to name and shame: Finchley.

I wasn't that keen on the class, but to be fair Adam did explicitly say "don't use the thumbs guys" a couple of times, which I thought was good...

Having said that, back when I started, there was a lot of talk about the proper grip, and how thumb's were the Devil's Work or something, does that not get covered so much now in beginner's classes?

Slight caveat: I don't believe thumb usage is the work of the Devil now, but it's a bit like all the other rules - it's a good lies-to-children approach to band usage of thumbs altogether to be safe.

Originally Posted by LMC

It never seems to get better - even after Adam mentioned the whole 'thumb thing' in last night's lesson guys were *still* doing it.

Oops, that'll teach me to reply before reading...

[LMC]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Having said that, back when I started, there was a lot of talk about the proper grip, and how thumb's were the Devil's Work or something, does that not get covered so much now in beginner's classes?

Varies from teacher to teacher and even from week to week :shrug:

It's not quite so bad with absolute beginners, 'cos we can 'demonstrate' to them how much easier it is to actually NOT use their thumbs (plus they respect us new intermediates 'cos they don't know any better mwa-ha-ha-ha). The worst is the "advanced" dancers - there is one guy with a particularly vice-like grip with whom I have a mutual agreement not to dance any more. Interestingly, I am the only one who has ever commented - as is one of my friends. And presumably the teacher at that venue (not Finchley) who I had a quiet word with - she knew him well and said she's talked to him a number of times - the guy's grip seriously is a menace.

The only solution I can see is for all sufferers to complain - I hate being the "only one" who apparently has a problem - especially when I *know* from talking to other girls (we do that sometimes) that I'm NOT the only one

Originally Posted by DJ the heretic

Slight caveat: I don't believe thumb usage is the work of the Devil now, but it's a bit like all the other rules - it's a good lies-to-children approach to band usage of thumbs altogether to be safe.

(a LIGHT thumb contact may be necessary to maintain connection on some moves - but literally a 'touch' NOT a grip)

[Ruby]

LMC, sounds like you and I are on the same page here.

I'd like to resurrect this thread because as of late... the "thumbs" thing is starting to really get on my nerves... both within Modern Jive and Lindy-Hop.

Here are a few rules of "thumb" about thumbs that come to mind from my perspective:
1) You don't need 'em. If you chopped 'em off, you could still be a competition quality dancer. You also don't need to pinch your partner's hand between any other sets of fingers. It's absolutely unnecessary and very irritating/distracting/dangerous.
a) irritating: it irritates the skin on my hands to have them chafed and gripped for an entire night of dancing.
b) distracting: a hard grip on my hands distracts me from all the other cues that I need to follow you. it puts my brain into my hands rather than in the rest of my body.
c) dangerous: occasionally, people lose their footing, or a move turns into a joint-lock. i need to be able to let go and stabilize myself. If you're dipping me and drop me, don't worry.... i'll take you down with me. no need to grip.

2) If you had proper tension/compression between you and your partner, you wouldn't need to grip/experience grip. Check yourself... do you as a lead or a follow provide matching tension/compression? All you need is a pound of pressure to lead/follow a move. Make enough contact to feel the skin squish between you and your partner... no more is needed except in rare cases. An exception might be slippery sweaty hands. If you're constantly slipping from your partner's grip, maybe he/she feels the need to grip you to keep you from escaping.

3) Most leads and follows don't actually realize they're gripping their partner. It's often a stress-response to the complex action of thinking while dancing. As of late, it has occurred to me that someone is hurting me, they actually don't really mean to... they're ignorant of the fact that what they're doing hurts.
a) Therefore... a gentle reminder should aleive the annoyance of the offending thumb and let the dancer know that they should be aware of it.
b) Although I don't always speak up when I feel an annoying thumb lead, I try to do it when I feel I can be diplomatic. You're not doing anyone a favor by "being nice" because "being nice" usually means
i) never asking the person to dance again/ never accepting a dance again
ii) badmouthing them behind their back, which doesn't actually help them fix the problem
iii) never giving yourself the opportunity to find out if you are partially responsible for the problem
iv) leading the dancer to think they're awesome, and continuing to put other people through the same suffering
c) providing feedback/criticism on the floor is often considered poor floor-craft. However, in the case of pain or possible injury, I think it should absolutely be done to improve the enjoyment for all.

4) If you feel you need to talk with someone on the dance floor about a move/technique that makes you uncomfortable, be diplomatic. No need to back-pedal and apologize for existing but a gentle, "I don't know if you've noticed, but you are doing xyz... which is a bit uncomfortable for me." Or... turn it on yourself, "I notice that you're squeezing my hand/gripping me for dear life... can I do something to make it easier for us to connect?"

5) Here are some ways to deal with chilly responses:
a) "I've never gotten that complaint before."
response: "That doesn't invalidate what I'm saying."
or: "That's because few people are comfortable discussing these things on the dance-floor."
or, if necessary: "That's because no one else has the balls to tell you."
or... my personal favorite: "Actually, all the girls call you "Thumbs McGee. I thought you should know."

b) "That's what I was taught."
response: "Perhaps you could consider other options."
or: "There are many approaches. I find this one more comfortable."
or, even better: "Who is your teacher? I'd like to have a word with them."

What's the worst that could happen? The person that you HATE dancing with hears you complain, thinks you're rude and never asks you to dance again. Great... one less crappy dance. OR... he/she changes their style and you get to have better dances. OR... you find out that you could do a few things to make it easier for them to dance with you.

I think the last three items should also be liberally applied to any other move that is dangerous/inappropriate/uncomfortable. People who have bad technique have it because they're not getting the right feedback about their dancing. Some people choose to take private lessons or communicate with friends about their technique, but many don't. But... I doubt that people get into social dance with the deliberate intention of making life miserable for others. Get over trying to "be nice" by being silent. Silence = Consent. There are times and places where a person may not be open to feedback... or it may not be appropriate for you to give it... sort that out yourself. Friendly open communication makes a better dance community, and that is way more fun.

Thanks for reading...