Keeping hold without using thumbs - HOW?

OK, we all know we shouldn't ever grip on with our thumbs, but some moves require 'keeping hold' at a point where its a different move if you let go. How do you hold on without using your thumbs? How do you indicate that you're going to hold on so you don't injure your partner if the're anticipating a spin and there isn't going to be one? Do you have to have a discusion before the dance that at some point you're going to do the particular move?

[Gadget]

Originally posted byUnregistered
OK, we all know we shouldn't ever grip on with our thumbs, but some moves require 'keeping hold' at a point where its a different move if you let go. How do you hold on without using your thumbs? How do you indicate that you're going to hold on so you don't injure your partner if the're anticipating a spin and there isn't going to be one? Do you have to have a discusion before the dance that at some point you're going to do the particular move?

Personally there is only one move that I ever have a problem with leading beginne and I sometimes use the thumb: R-R hand hold, step in R-side to R-side folding arm accross chest. Now one variant is to flatten the hand on your shoulder so that the ladie’s hand is flat on yours, then lead down towards the lady’s outside hip and they free-spin. The same lead, but with a ‘normal’ hold should just turn the lady out. I tend to lead the spin a bit too strong {} and tend to gently grip beginners hands when opening out.

Other than that, I lead with the middle finger, using the lower ‘manipulators’ for compression and the finger for tension. The forefinger can be used for latteral guidance and the middle finger is ‘dropped’ for the lady to spin round on turns. I don't think I [u]can[/i] lead with a “grip” any more.

[JamesGeary]

Make your hand kind of like a hook.

[TheTramp]

Sticky-tape.

Trampy

Originally posted by Gadget
Personally there is only one move that I ever have a problem with leading beginne and I sometimes use the thumb: R-R hand hold, step in R-side to R-side folding arm accross chest. Now one variant is to flatten the hand on your shoulder so that the ladie’s hand is flat on yours, then lead down towards the lady’s outside hip and they free-spin. The same lead, but with a ‘normal’ hold should just turn the lady out. I tend to lead the spin a bit too strong {} and tend to gently grip beginners hands when opening out.

Other than that, I lead with the middle finger, using the lower ‘manipulators’ for compression and the finger for tension. The forefinger can be used for latteral guidance and the middle finger is ‘dropped’ for the lady to spin round on turns. I don't think I [u]can[/i] lead with a “grip” any more.

OK, thats obviously Eniglish, I know what every word in that means. I havn't a clue what you just tried to tell me though.

[spindr]

Ok: say for the left hand... the traditional approach is to keep your fingers together, with no gaps -- pointing to your right, so that your fingers form a "wall" between you and the follower. The lady makes a hook (upside-down "u") so that her hand bends at the 2nd and 3rd knuckles. Your hand fits between her 2nd and 3rd knuckles.

When you want to lead the lady forwards - generate tension in the handhold - then the back of your fingers will pull against the back of the lady's fingers (from her fingertip to her 2nd knuckle).

When you want to lead the lady backwards - generate compression in the handhold - then the front of your fingers will push against the lady's palm. If you are sneaky you can also use the heel of your thumb to slightly push against the front of the lady's little-finger, etc. but don't squeeze!

For learning purposes you can consider the thumb to point vertically; this will stop you gripping with it -- in practice you can just lie it down against the side of your palm. When you definitely *definitely* are not going to let go of the lady's hand then you can use your thumb to hold the lady's hand lightly -- this should be an exceptional occurence, e.g. to differentiate a yoyo lead from a hatchback.

After a while you can reduce how many fingers you use for leading -- which helps keep the handhold relaxed.

Your handhold should transform as you lead the lady to turn -- e.g. going from the hook shape, through a palm to palm grip, back to the hook shape.

Good luck,
SpinDr.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by spindr
When you want to lead the lady forwards - generate tension in the handhold - then the back of your fingers will pull against the back of the lady's fingers (from her fingertip to her 2nd knuckle).

"back of your fingers"? I think that it's the front: ie the fleshy bit without nails.

When you want to lead the lady backwards - generate compression in the handhold - then the front of your fingers will push against the lady's palm.

Again, I would say the back: ie where the knuckles are.
Appart from confusing me trying to work out what's the front and back of my hand,

e.g. to differentiate a yoyo lead from a hatchback.

that's it... couldn't remember the names

Your handhold should transform as you lead the lady to turn -- e.g. going from the hook shape, through a palm to palm grip, back to the hook shape.

I don't think I have ever done it this way I always use the "spindle" method... am I doing something wrong??

[spindr]

Originally posted by Gadget
"back of your fingers"? I think that it's the front: ie the fleshy bit without nails.

Again, I would say the back: ie where the knuckles are.
Appart from confusing me trying to work out what's the front and back of my hand,

that's it... couldn't remember the names

I don't think I have ever done it this way I always use the "spindle" method... am I doing something wrong??

Hmmm, I guess I should use terms like palm side (instead of back of fingers) and non-palm side (instead of front of fingers) --- it seemed so obvious when I was looking at my left hand and typing what I could see

The going through palm to palm is a simplification -- it means you have to have adjusted the hands so that the lady can turn freely -- which is the most important bit. It also sort of helps in letting the handhold rotate as the lady turns so that you can more easily get back into the original "hook" shape handhold.

If you use a "halo" approach to turning you will probably go palm to palm but the lady's palm will be more vertical and the man's palm more horizontal.

Of course you have to find your own way of leading and you own handhold that lets you do that comfortably -- sometimes I use a chopstick style grip e.g. leading with longest finger, but keeping the first finger (nearest the thumb) free -- so that the lady's hand is then in held in a "v" sign. This gives you an extra lead -- e.g. on the left hand a free first finger can be used as a hint against the non-palm side of the lady's hand e.g. to show that I'm not leading a clockwise turn -- as that finger is obviously in the way But I certainly wouldn't recommend that to anyone having problems.

SpinDr.

[DavidB]

"Don't use your thumb" is a bit misleading (sorry, wasn't meant to be a pun). What you should aim to do is "not hurt your partner". The thumb only gets a special mention because it is capable of a lot more damage, especially to the back of the lady's hand.

Your thumb moves in the opposite direction to your fingers. So you should only use your thumb when you need to apply pressure to the lady's hand and your fingers are facing the wrong way. Sometimes the thumb can be the easiest part of your hand to lead with, especially in some spins. I know I do this a lot, and I know at least one teacher in Australia who teaches it. However these moves are few and far between - most of the time you shouldn't need to use your thumb.

Don't be afraid to move your hand around your partner's hand. You don't always have to hold on to her fingers with your fingers. The palm of her hand, the sides of her hand,her wrist and her forearm are all perfectly ok to hold on to. But don't apply any pressure to the back of her hand. The tendons there are too exposed, and you can uasily cause tendonitis or worse.

One other thing to avoid - dont use your fingers and thumb at the same time.

David

OK, this is starting to make sense. Up till now I've been trying to literally follow the instructions to offer a flat hand and keep thumbs out of the way. Maybe keeping such a weak hold is part of why my lead isn't clear? I undertand the need to avoid injury only too well - my girlfriend almost had the tendon in her right arm by a beginner (not me!) with a vice-like grip who didn't let go for the spin part of a hatchback. However surely something should be mentioned about when to vary the grip, at least during the beginners review class or workshops?

[Gadget]

Originally posted by twoRIGHTfeet
...However surely something should be mentioned about when to vary the grip, at least during the beginners review class or workshops?

As far as I am aware, there are only four basic types of "grip" and they are covered when needed {at least they are up here}:
- Standard: loose draped fingers over man's.
- Turning: sliding connection that allows contact, but hands move over each other
- Spinning: no 'grip'; just compression in preperation of a spin - normally a flat hand, although could be flat hand on another part of the lady {}
- Leaning: strong 'grip'; in preperation for tension moves - normally advanced moves where the hold changes to a 'ballroom' or 'butterfly' grip, or sometimes wrist-wrist grip. Normally used when a lot of the lady's weight is going to be ballanced between you, used for momentum or going into a drop.

Personally, I find that the "Thumbs to the ceiling" position is very hard to acheive (even worse to 'hold') - especially when the hand is lowered to just below your partner's waist. I keep it out of the way, but in a more natural 'pint glass holding' position.

[thewacko]

Originally posted by twoRIGHTfeet
OK, this is starting to make sense. Up till now I've been trying to literally follow the instructions to offer a flat hand and keep thumbs out of the way. Maybe keeping such a weak hold is part of why my lead isn't clear?

sorry you still aint got it, having a weak hold has nothing to do with your lead being unclear. I now find myself automatically removing my forfinger from under the ladies hand, as well as my thumb, as i find it helps in the return of the lady.

Your lead will come from your movement af your hand and arm, and the tension between your hand and your partners. silly but I know what I mean but to try and explain it in writing is bl**dy difficult, have words with your local teacher or taxi dancers, I am sure they will be able to demonstrate what you need to do which is much easier than reading about it

good luck

[Bill]

When taxi-ing we usually show the men how to lead with just one or two fingers around whcih the woman's hand can move.

When I started Ceroc I used to grip on under the belief that if I didn't really hold on she'd 'escape' but the analogy I use is to get them to think about playing golf where the tighter you grip the worse your swing ( at least the way I play ).

Using the fingertips or the 'front' of the hands from the knuckle to the top finger joint is enough to lead and allows the woman to move and turn unhindered. At least it seems to work but then most of the women up here ( and those I've danced with elsewhere) follow really well.

But then David described this much better and more eloquently .... just thought I'd add my twopence worth.

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by thewacko

having a weak hold has nothing to do with your lead being unclear

One of the things I need to lead is the difference between "we are connected, please don't let go" and "we are no longer connected, please don't hold on". Having too weak a hold can make that distinction unclear. Conversely, if I'm having trouble leading the difference to my partner, I can compensate by increasing the strength of my hold.

I always use the "spindle" method... am I doing something wrong??

Ditto, though I call it a "two fingered return". When I remember, I'm trying to practice the flat palm during return technique, but when I do it tends to turn into a "spindle" with four fingers instead of two... :-(

[Andy McGregor]

Another trick would be to ask someone who teaches to show you how it's done

Like andy says, it will probably be easier if you ask someone to show you as describing the technique in the written word is pretty difficult, but DO NOT STENGTHEN YOUR GRIP, the "grip" is just a loose hand hold as is always described at the beginning of every class!!!!!!!!!!!!!

forgot me password again but I am THEWACKO

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

Another trick would be to ask someone who teaches to show you how it's done

Funny ..I've been trying to teach lead/follow in a number of differnt mini-workshops over the last month. The dancers have ranged form beginners to experienced dancers ... and I'm surprised at how hard it is to get people to relax the grip and yet not over-anticipate. I think it comes back to sage words said elsewhere .. we teach people the dance before we teach them the basic of how to. (or something like that).

[thewacko]

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

Another trick would be to ask someone who teaches to show you how it's done

flat palm return, or leading a connection vs leading no connection?

[Gordon J Pownall]

Originally Posted by TheTramp

Sticky-tape.

Trampy

Tchhh......how out dated....

Try VELCRO (tm)