Perpetual beginner

[Whitebeard]

Originally Posted by Gadget

If you are in a position to notice that what they do is different from what they say, then you have advanced beyond the genric "beginner" mode:

Ok, so far as individual beginner moves are concerned you're probably right. But when it come to stringing them together into a smoothly flowing dance sequence of 3 or 4 minutes I'm still fluffing and floundering. And, very definitely a per.. , no, no, an everlasting beginner.

Many thanks Gadget for your comments and links ... I'm beginning to find how to navigate around ... and don't the hours fly by!!

Originally Posted by Jive Brummie

Right, on beat two of the first move the position should be, standing side by side, man facing one way the lady the other, mans left hand at his left shoulder with his right hand on his partners right hip....(not waist!). From there (on beat 3) he twists the lady out to the side by pushing down towards the ladys hip with his left hand as he pulls with his right hand....ladys stepping back right foot behind left and men stepping back left foot behind right (in a mirror image type-thing)....beat 4 is exactly the same as beat 2. The man steps forward, returning the lady to here previous position, with his left hand at his left shoulder and right hand on ladys hip, standing side to side. Neither of the mans feet at this stage should be either in front nor behind the other.....does that help?? Or have I confused you??

No, no, that's pretty much exactly how I used to be quite happy trying to do it (except I can't count and made it count 4 instead of 3 in my original post) until I noticed the teacher/demonstrator taking those two steps instead of one. "If good dancers do it this way" I thought, "I must do the same if I'm to be a good dancer." The concensus in this thread seems to be that there should only be one step, so I can only assume that many of the more experienced come to Ceroc through other flavours of Modern Jive and old habits die hard. Anyway, I've come to the conclusion I'll never be any more than a reasonably competent social dancer ... so maybe the Ceroc way is best for me.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

I can only assume that many of the more experienced come to Ceroc through other flavours of Modern Jive and old habits die hard.

I think most people find their way into MJ via Ceroc - sorry to seem like I'm contradicting you But, I think the spirit of what you're saying is right. Many people come to MJ through other styles of dancing. And they bring elements of their other styles of dance with them - which is why there seems to be many different styles of MJ.

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

Anyway, I've come to the conclusion I'll never be any more than a reasonably competent social dancer ... so maybe the Ceroc way is best for me.

That's what we should all aim for really. MJ is a social dance first and foremost. On those rare occasions that I'm actually practicing for a competition I'm not a "reasonably competent social dancer" and neither are the other guys that are practicing. Speaking for myself, I'm focussed on getting it right rather than having a good time - it makes me less rather than more in the social dance situation: I'm much less considerate of my partner or those around me - I'm mostly thinking of showing off for those imaginary judges As many people have said, the first few dances after a competition are always the best, the pressure's off and you can go back to the fun again. So, Whitebeard, make being a competent social dancer your aim; don't be tempted down the route of being the dancer everyone watches - that way lies ruin and, in my experience, a lot of wigs, glitter and tights

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

But when it come to stringing them together into a smoothly flowing dance sequence of 3 or 4 minutes I'm still fluffing and floundering.

Perfect timing! a track only lasts 3/4 minutes - then you can get a partner who you haven't done these moves with yet! Sometimes I work my way through a song where every other move is the same. Here are a couple of tips that people give to expand your repertoir:

- Change the timing if a move flows A->B->C->D, then you go A->B--B->C->D. Stopping, walking in a circle, stepping away and together again,... insert a 'dramatism' in the middle. This works really well if you can get it to match the music (Alternativly, you hear a bit in the music make the move match it.)

- Cut up moves most moves are A->B->C->D. Simply stop at A->B then go into another move. Most "intermediate" moves are like this; three or four 'moves' mangled into each other.

- Reverse moves. OK, so a reverse basket is the same as a normal basket, but moves like the cattapult could be halted before taking the lady infront of you, then reversing back out to where you were.

- Switch roles some moves are harder to do this with than others, but you could try wraping youself into a basket instead of the lady; things like that.

- Swap hands/sides Take the lady into (eg)a left-sided basket instead of right: feels really weird, and is really an 'advanced' technique (ie don't try it untill you are confident with 'proper' leading because it will confuse you.)

Anyway, I've come to the conclusion I'll never be any more than a reasonably competent social dancer ... so maybe the Ceroc way is best for me.

Two things:
2 - Ceroc can be all you want it to be: For beginners it's a beginner's dance. For people from a dancing background it's a new form of expression. People may use it as a stepping stone to another form of dance. For 'social' dancers it' s fun excercise to meet and dance. For 'hotshots' it's a chance to show off.
It may not be all things to all men, but it sure tries it's hardest.

1 - As soon as you think 'there is no more I can/want to learn', then there is no more you will learn: Your dancing will never improve beyond that point. As long as you are trying to improve, you will. Don't limit yourself to "a reasonably competent social dancer" - there are several members of this forum who have been dancing a l.o.n.g time who would not consider themselves above this level (myself included).
You are dancing. You like the track. You are smiling and having fun. Your partner is smiling and having fun. What can beat that?

[under par]

Originally Posted by Gadget

You are dancing. You like the track. You are smiling and having fun. Your partner is smiling and having fun. What can beat that?

Such WISE words from one so youthful.

It is the smiles and fun and music and beat that do it for me nothing else really matters


(if I could remember my part of the smiling!!)

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally Posted by under par

(if I could remember my part of the smiling!!)

Well, I remember you smiling

[under par]

Originally Posted by Sheena

Well, I remember you smiling

Ahhhh SHEENA!!!! I remember that smile too.mmmmmmmm!

[Whitebeard]

Originally Posted by Gadget

You are dancing.

Well, sort of.

Originally Posted by Gadget

You like the track.

That has been known.

Originally Posted by Gadget

You are smiling and having fun.

Aah, but I'm not there yet!! I somehow fear that my grizzly visage usually bears a somewhat tense and apprehensive expression whilst dancing. Only breaking into rueful and apologetic smiles when I fluff it yet again. Surely it can't be that I should deliberately court disaster in order to appear friendly?

Originally Posted by Gadget

Your partner is smiling and having fun. What can beat that?

I live in hope

[under par]

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

Well, sort of.




I live in hope

You will make it Mr Whitebeard.....patience.....practice......

endeavour........Smile


I never believed I would be more than a beginner for 1st 18 months of dancing whilst I was going to classes intermittantly once a week or fortnight.

Then I decided to dance a few nights in a row rather than once a week. The feeling of enlightenment when I was able to consolidate moves learned by practicing the moves the following evening was really amazing.

So amazing I went 4 evenings in a row

Keep enjoying your dancing and when you feel up to it try a few consecutive evenings. It worked for me, made me feel far more confident.

i'm still learning and have found this forum a great font of info and have tried out many things mentioned in the threads.

[tsh]

I've found this forum amazingly useful now that I've reached the stage of not really being a beginner any more, and starting to feel completely useless. To start with, just getting to grips with the beginners routine was enough to keep me occupied, unable to think about anything else - and I knew I was entitled to take some of the experienced dancer's time whilst they let me think I was leading them.

After a couple of weeks (3 nights a week), I found that I still couldn't manage more than stringing 4-5 moves together, but I had more time to think about what I wanted to do next. Just couldn't actually find anything to do next but each move seemed to be over very quickly. Plus, I was able to appreciate a bit more how good everyone else seemed to be.

A desperate web search brough me here, and the most important message (apart from showering before going out, etc.) seemed to be that the followers arnt too bothered what moves you do, so long as you stick to moves that you can lead and they don't have to work out what you're trying to do!

My new tactic is to use the beginner's routine as a basic sequence that I'm (now) completely happy with, since it's not too chalenging - and just vary it a little bit, rather than trying to make sure I use all the moves I've learnt in every dance. I've also stopped worrying about getting stuck in the 'yoyo - what can I do from a right hand hold - yoyo - right hand again - yoyo', and just accept it will happen then after a while a way to continue will appear!

It seems to work, because noone told me to smile last night, and I feel a bit more confident about asking people to dance again!

Sean

[Lory]

Hiya and welcome to the forum!

Just read your post and just the mere fact you've started to have more time to think and noticing what other people do, means your improving!

After a couple of weeks (3 nights a week), I found that I still couldn't manage more than stringing 4-5 moves together, but I had more time to think about what I wanted to do next. Just couldn't actually find anything to do next but each move seemed to be over very quickly. Plus, I was able to appreciate a bit more how good everyone else seemed to be.

My tip for you is, just remember one move you like from the lesson, just one and add it in to your repertoire that evening, try to repeat it at least twice per dance, that way, it will begin to feel more natural and you can relax again and style it up!

If you continue to do this for a month 3xs a week just imagine, you'll have loads of moves!

It's so much more important to us ladies to know the man we're dancing with is enjoying himself and haivng fun, even if the routine is basic and simple, rather than worrying and struggling and looking miserable!

p.s. Liked your homepage tsh and btw we share a common interest, a certain kind of engine!

[tsh]

Originally Posted by Lory

If you continue to do this for a month 3xs a week just imagine, you'll have loads of moves!

I think there's a limit to how much I can remember at once. At least it's not new moves every time any more!

Originally Posted by Lory

p.s. Liked your homepage tsh and btw we share a common interest, a certain kind of engine!

Full of coincidences, this internet thing!

Sean

[Trish]

Originally Posted by tsh

My new tactic is to use the beginner's routine as a basic sequence that I'm (now) completely happy with, since it's not too chalenging - and just vary it a little bit, rather than trying to make sure I use all the moves I've learnt in every dance. I've also stopped worrying about getting stuck in the 'yoyo - what can I do from a right hand hold - yoyo - right hand again - yoyo', and just accept it will happen then after a while a way to continue will appear!

It seems to work, because noone told me to smile last night, and I feel a bit more confident about asking people to dance again!

Sean

Sounds like you're getting there to me! I used to do that repeated yoyo thing all the time when I first started learning the lead, after a while I found the best thing to break the habit was to do a yoyo pushspin and then catch with the other hand (the left), this way you can't possibly do another yoyo - works for first moves too Otherwise try a catapult, just to vary it!

Glad you're enjoying yourself and feeling more confident!

Trish

[Whitebeard]

Originally Posted by under par

I never believed I would be more than a beginner for 1st 18 months of dancing .......

There's hope for me yet then. Eight months to go, and counting down.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Originally Posted by trish

I used to do that repeated yoyo thing all the time when I first started learning the lead, after a while I found the best thing to break the habit was to do a yoyo pushspin and then catch with the other hand (the left) .......

Mm, I worked out a similar sequence to practice the lead on moves that started the same ..... Yoyo, Yoyo Pushspin, and Hatchback, which also gives the opportunity to catch left. I think this is the way I should go, develop little mini-routines which should eventually become almost second nature. And use spins to switch from left led to right led (and vice versa) routines.

Having trouble with the American Spin though. Too often the lady doesn't read my (obviously deficient) lead and has no tension in the right arm. Shall have to work on that one.

[under par]

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

There's hope for me yet then. Eight months to go, and counting down.

Thanks for the encouragement.


Mm, I worked out a similar sequence to practice the lead on moves that started the same ..... Yoyo, Yoyo Pushspin, and Hatchback, which also gives the opportunity to catch left. I think this is the way I should go, develop little mini-routines which should eventually become almost second nature. And use spins to switch from left led to right led (and vice versa) routines.

Having trouble with the American Spin though. Too often the lady doesn't read my (obviously deficient) lead and has no tension in the right arm. Shall have to work on that one.

Not every move will suit you and you need not remember every move of each lesson.

I actually think you will learn more by remembering a single move or sequence that you enjoy from the lesson.

Further I think a good overall ploy as a leader is to list all the moves you know as 1. right hand lead 2. left hand lead 3. cross hand lead or 4. double hand lead.

it is amazing how you can increase the variety of moves you use when you have only 4 small lists to remember instead of one long one. Give it a try

[Whitebeard]

Originally Posted by under par

Further I think a good overall ploy as a leader is to list all the moves you know as 1. right hand lead 2. left hand lead 3. cross hand lead or 4. double hand lead.

it is amazing how you can increase the variety of moves you use when you have only 4 small lists to remember instead of one long one. Give it a try

Uh huh, I think that's pretty well the approach I'm beginning to adopt for the final freestyle session except that I don't know any cross-hand leads and can forget those for the present. Pity, because some of them look rather nice.

In the first short freestyle, after the beginner class, I concentrate on the sequence just learnt and am gradually finding this easier to complete without mistakes.

You've probably forgotten how big the jump is between beginner and intermediate. If there's one gripe I have about Ceroc this is it. It's one thing to go through four relatively simple moves and quite another to go through another four longer, more complicated moves, at a rather breakneck speed. It's just too much for me to take in. Sometimes I sit it out, sometimes I start but drop out when it all gets too much. Just once or twice I've managed to get through a session. Only to promptly forget it all. The old grey cells are overloaded.

Personally I would rather that, say, only two intermediate moves were covered but in greater depth and with longer to practice and to perfect. In fact I've probably gained more from the couple of 'fun' moves inroduced at the few Freestyle events I've attended than from those moves taught in the intermediate session of the regular classes.

Perhaps an intermediate workshop is the answer, but I've fought shy of those
so far in case it's more of the same.

[under par]

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

Uh huh, I think that's pretty well the approach I'm beginning to adopt for the final freestyle session except that I don't know any cross-hand leads and can forget those for the present. Pity, because some of them look rather nice.

In the first short freestyle, after the beginner class, I concentrate on the sequence just learnt and am gradually finding this easier to complete without mistakes.

You've probably forgotten how big the jump is between beginner and intermediate. If there's one gripe I have about Ceroc this is it. It's one thing to go through four relatively simple moves and quite another to go through another four longer, more complicated moves, at a rather breakneck speed. It's just too much for me to take in. Sometimes I sit it out, sometimes I start but drop out when it all gets too much. Just once or twice I've managed to get through a session. Only to promptly forget it all. The old grey cells are overloaded.

Personally I would rather that, say, only two intermediate moves were covered but in greater depth and with longer to practice and to perfect. In fact I've probably gained more from the couple of 'fun' moves inroduced at the few Freestyle events I've attended than from those moves taught in the intermediate session of the regular classes.

Perhaps an intermediate workshop is the answer, but I've fought shy of those
so far in case it's more of the same.

Whitebeard, get a notepad of any description and when you complete the beginners lesson write down a brief description of the moves you have just learned, including which hand you start with.

do this every time you attend. In the freestyle if you get bored with moves from your memory, sit out one track and read you previously listed moves adding 2 moves from the list to the next track you dance to.

If you maintain the list and re-read your list when you personally get bored with your own routine. You will refresh yourself and your freestyle!

good luck Have patience!

[Whitebeard]

Originally Posted by under par

Whitebeard, get a notepad of any description and when you complete the beginners lesson write down a brief description of the moves you have just learned, including which hand you start with.

I reckon I might have to be a bit discreet about this. Observant ladies might get a bit paranoid and think I'm jotting down comments about them!!! Then I'll get fewer invites than at present and, when I take the initiative, I might even get a refusal. That's not happened at Ceroc yet and would completely shatter my self belief .... a very delicate flower in need of constant loving care.

[under par]

Originally Posted by Whitebeard