Perpetual beginner

[Whitebeard]

Hooray, I've managed to register - some problem with my AOL address.

I'm the perpetual beginner, perhaps something to do with advancing years and a natural diffidence limiting the amount of dancing I've done over quite a few months.

However, I pretty well know the beginner moves and can usually string together the four moves taught each session whilst still occasionally managing to fluff the hand changes. And this brings up the first of my problems.

Although man's left to ladies right seems to flow quite naturally, I do have difficulties with some partners when it comes to man's right to ladies right, when the lady is turning in such moves as the yo-yo. I'm supposed to be the leader so it must be my fault. I know it's palm down for me, but which fingers engage in this manoeuvre? Any observations from experienced dancers?

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Whitebeard
I'm the perpetual beginner, perhaps something to do with advancing years and a natural diffidence limiting the amount of dancing I've done over quite a few months.

Sorry, Tramp maintains this is his title {but we all think he's lying. }

Although man's left to ladies right seems to flow quite naturally, I do have difficulties with some partners when it comes to man's right to ladies right, when the lady is turning in such moves as the yo-yo. I'm supposed to be the leader so it must be my fault. I know it's palm down for me, but which fingers engage in this manoeuvre? Any observations from experienced dancers?

The hand hold is the connection between you and your partner. It is a guide to gently direct the lady; not command her. Unfortunatly however the Yo-Yo sometimes needs to be a bit 'louder' in the lead for some ladies to 'hear' it.

- On the step in, make sure that you are parallel with your partner: if the lady is infront, you will find too much resistance and force is needed to lead it. If you are infront, the lady has already started to turn (because of her arm position) before you want her to. You may have to rotate slightly to accomodate different partners.
- The hand-hold I try to trap the ladies fingers between the flesh of my fingers and my shoulder, with the palm flat. (for a 'true' yo-yo; for a push-spin I try to not trap the fingers and have a completley flat hand with the ladies hand on the back of mine.)
- When leading this out again, there are two things that may happen; the lady goes into a free-spin or she rotates out. (If it's neither of these, then you are not moving your hand away from your body enough) To differentiate between these leads I have been known to gently hold the tips of ladies fingers to encourage her not to spin off, or flatten my hand completley and give a little more 'oomph' than is strictly neccisary.
- The lady has now opened out and your palm shoud be facing front at the ladies hip level.Try not to have it too high or be too streached.

multiple ways to exit from here, but that's the yo-yo in. Hope this helps.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Gadget
Sorry, Tramp maintains this is his title {but we all think he's lying. }

Yeah. That's my line. Go find your own 'hook'.

But welcome to the forum anyhow

Trampy

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Whitebeard
Although man's left to ladies right seems to flow quite naturally, I do have difficulties with some partners when it comes to man's right to ladies right, when the lady is turning in such moves as the yo-yo. I'm supposed to be the leader so it must be my fault. I know it's palm down for me, but which fingers engage in this manoeuvre? Any observations from experienced dancers?

If the problem is just the turn out, then point the index finger at the floor, and let her rotate around it. (or use the first and second fingers together)

[Whitebeard]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Yeah. That's my line. Go find your own 'hook'.

Oops, trod on some toes already. Sorry, sorry, sorry; yet another rueful grin. That's the story of my dancing career. Won't use that 'hook' again.

Originally posted by Gadget
The hand hold is the connection between you and your partner.

Yes, I'm beginning to realise how important this is to the dance and just how much can be conveyed through the hand contact. And thanks for your tips. However I wasn't thinking of the lead but, rather, that moment of neutrality when the the lady is turning clockwise under my raised right hand and a couple of counts later is returning counter clockwise. Too often this all ends in a bit of a tangle and we have to shake free before something breaks and then grapple to re-establish contact.

[bigdjiver]

It sounds like you are not lowering the hand and stepping back before you step in to return her.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Whitebeard
However I wasn't thinking of the lead but, rather, that moment of neutrality when the the lady is turning clockwise under my raised right hand and a couple of counts later is returning counter clockwise. Too often this all ends in a bit of a tangle and we have to shake free before something breaks and then grapple to re-establish contact.

That doesn't sound right...

• first thing is the 'grip': it isn't really a grip at all - it's a connection. There are many subtle variations, but I prefer the "pistol" grip: make a gun with your hand to shoot the monitor. Now relax the hand. Notice how the lower three fingers sit - your partner's hand should rest on your second finger. At most, their finger tips should touch our pinky.
  You should feel the weight of your partner's hand and while leading, either slight preasure on the backs of your fingers, or slight tension on the pads.
• The next is actually leading a turn - simply raising the hand works, but try to have your hand follow a smooth arc: Right to Right, from the start position, start moving your hand up in the direction of the lady's right ear while rotating the hand so it will end up palm down with the middle finger extended {as per BigDJiver's post}. By the time you reach shoulder height, your hand should be palm down and the lady will already be starting her turn. Continue the curve you are drawing in the air so that it smoothly passes infront of the ladies face and draws a little halo above the center of the ladies head. The shape you draw in the air should be close to a Fibonacci curve.
• As the lady's left shoulder comes round, start moveing slightly closer - reverse this when the lady's back is to you. (if you get an ewlbow in the face, you moved too soon ) This is more a style and fluid motion thing, but it helps with the lead of the lady as well.
• Do not use your arm/hand to make this halo - your wrist and fingers can make a big enough circle to indcate to the lady your intentions: too big and you will throw the lady off ballance. A lot of damage can be inflicted to a ladies arm/shoulder by being too forcefull on turns and returns - just lead them into it and take them out of it - try not to disturb them while actually in the turn.
• You also will start to notice that differnt ladies start and end their turns in different places, by varying the speed of the entrance/exit curve your hand makes, you should be able to keepyour time - just make sure that you 'finish' the turn (ie back to the start point orstart of the next move) on the beat.
• Throught all of this, you should be feeling preasure from the lady in your hand - even while in an almost 'neutral' central point of the turn, your finger should be able to tell you where the lady is facing and when to take it down again. You are gently 'pulling' the lady's hand during most of the lead.
• The momentum and natural flow out of this will probably tempt you into a move that takes the lady's hand to the left - if you want to do something else smoothly, you will probably have to start stepping back (slightly) from when your hand is starting to descendso that the curve comes towards you instead of infront of the lady.

I would only practice stuff like this during lessons; it should seap in - ignore it all when you're actually dancing otherwise you concentrate too much on what you should be doing and what you have done instead of what you are doing.

Let me know if any of this helps. {and gurus/teachers: let me know if I'm getting anything wrong }

[jiveoholic]

For me the important thing about a lady turning is not to use my fingers at all, ie just hvae a cupped hand, palm downwards, held directly over her head. Her little fingers then just twirl under my cup. It shoud then be easy to engage fingers again at the end of the turn so her shoulder is not dislocated and step back!

[Whitebeard]

Sorry about the long delay in responding to the helpful comments. First I couldn't access the forum, then I went on holiday, and then there were all sorts of problems with my Smartlink modem.

However, I've continued to dance and putting your advice into practice has improved matters considerably, bearing in mind that most of my partners are similarly inexperienced and each responds differently. Still some occasional fumbling but no more threats of a lockup. It seems to be a matter of dropping the first and/or the second fingers more or less vertically keeping the others extended horizontally as far out of the way as possible. Reminds me somewhat of drinking "genteelly" from a china tea cup. This action, and the little flourish that Gadget describes, seems to be quite a noticeable feature contributing to the 'style' of some dancers.

I used the yo-yo as an example and note that it is now being taught rather differently at both venues I attend. As the partners' arms are coming together vertically, hands palm to palm, the man takes a quarter turn clockwise and then, as the lady turns, completes a half turn. At the finish they have swapped ends. The lazy men won't be too keen on that! We also now start with a 'warm-up getting-into-the- rhythm' session. I assume these changes originate at Ceroc HQ.

Another thread concerns 'bobbing ladies' and I too find these rather disconcerting and liable to bring on one of those dreaded 'mind blank - what next?' moments at the end of a move. Some men are culprits too, which I find most unattractive and inelegant. On reflection though, there's more to it than just bobbing in the case of at least some of these ladies. They seem to have developed an action which I can only describe as syncopated (staccato?, somewhat jerky?) accompanied by rather stereotyped leg and free arm movements. Their sense of rhythm doesn't seem to coincide with my probably more free interpretation. Is anyone else aware of this as problem, or am I just completely off the beat? In this situation I don't feel at all in control and have to try to adapt.

[Lou]

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

Oops, trod on some toes already. Sorry, sorry, sorry; yet another rueful grin. That's the story of my dancing career. Won't use that 'hook' again.

Don't worry - the only reason the Tramp would moan about someone trading on his toes is because it might ruin one of his marvellous collection of shoes...

What's the dancing like in Gloucstershire, btw?

[TheTramp]

Ah. No. Don't worry about that at all...

My shoes are all well old and trodden on now. I could do with some new pairs. But that might have to wait until I'm no longer a poor student

Trampy

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

However, I've continued to dance and putting your advice into practice has improved matters considerably, bearing in mind that most of my partners are similarly inexperienced and each responds differently.

they always will. If you can lead any/all of them with exactly the same lead, then please let me know how. Don't be worried about trying to make them all move in the same way - as long as they all get to roughly the right place, you're doing well.

I assume these changes originate at Ceroc HQ.

Yea; there have been a few little changes, but all seem to be for the better... there are some posts in here about them - do a bit of searching if you're interested.

Their sense of rhythm doesn't seem to coincide with my probably more free interpretation. Is anyone else aware of this as problem, or am I just completely off the beat? In this situation I don't feel at all in control and have to try to adapt.

some people just 'bounce'. What to do is try and match them (rather than what you hear in the music) - it sort of 'cancels' it out and allows you to focus more on the moves and dancing properly. You could also try and not bounce your hand with the lady - be slightly firmer and try to keep it steady and level. The lady will probably pick up on it and the 'bounce' will reduce.

[Nick M]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

If the problem is just the turn out, then point the index finger at the floor, and let her rotate around it. (or use the first and second fingers together)

Ditto to that - it works for me even for very inexperienced ladies

[Whitebeard]

Originally Posted by Lou

What's the dancing like in Gloucstershire, btw?

I'm not able to make any comparisons but the local venues are very popular and well attended with an enthusiastic and friendly crowd. Floor space is often at a premium and, as I gather is par for the course, there is invariably a welcome surplus of ladies (in the order of 10% I would estimate).

There are many dancers who leave me feeling very inadequate, but some lovely ladies who invite this unconfident slow learner to dance.

There's Street Dancing on Friday in Cheltenham Promenade as part of the Music Festival. That should be fun so long as it's not as cold as it was for the Salsa people last Friday. I was a bystander on that occasion and a couple of fingers went white - in July!

[Whitebeard]

Originally Posted by Gadget

Yea; there have been a few little changes, but all seem to be for the better... there are some posts in here about them - do a bit of searching if you're interested.

I've looked around but haven't yet found that thread.

Here's another question cum observation which also has some bearing on how Ceroc is taught.

Do as the teacher says, or do as the teacher does?

This comes up in the First Move (count 4 I think) where the couple have come together, side by side, facing opposite ways. The man moves his left hand, and the ladies right, to his right and downward towards her left hip and she starts her half C/W pivot to face the same way. At this point the teacher simply says something like, "Men step back, it doesn't matter which foot." But it surely does, as the dance looks so much better if the partner's legs mirror each other in this and similar situations.

Most of us in the class, I think, take it that this means there should be just one step back on this count, but, in fact, watching the teacher's initial demonstration of the move, he takes two steps back at this point, first right, then left, as his partner mirrors. More ground is covered and it looks good. I've seen other demonstrators doing the same, and this is how the move is described on the Bristol Leroc site.

I take it that "Ceroc" is trying to simplify things and perhaps take into account crowded floors and faster music. And, in general, I do find my feet starting to look after themselves. But I find such anomalies confusing as I seek to learn and develop my own individual style, whilst at the same time trying to give a positive and unambiguous lead to my partners. All part of the learning process I suppose, but I still find that, depending upon the music* and the partner, the First Move and the Basket seldom flow as smoothly as I feel they should.

* Some tracks are just so good (though unfortunately rarely played) that they take over and not a foot appears to go wrong - a bit like driving after a skinful, the engine so silky smooth, the gear changes so slick, the corners poetry in motion....... May not look pretty, but it feels great! At least when dancing no lives are at risk. And, anyway, that was all in my glorious youth before breathalysers had been thought of.

Yesterday, prancing round to loud sounds as I carried out my kitchen chores (one of the dubious joys of living alone), I discovered the Salsa wiggle. Is there a place for that in Ceroc? Or is that altogether too poncey?

And, Gadget, the spell check has found not a single error, even after my generously self-served amber nightcap. How about that?

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

I've looked around but haven't yet found that thread.

try Feedback on recent changes

Do as the teacher says, or do as the teacher does?

If you are in a position to notice that what they do is different from what they say, then you have advanced beyond the genric "beginner" mode:
In your example of the 1st move - the lady should be drawn in so that everyones feet are in the one line; when they pivot out, the foot should remain planted, therefore only the one step is required to mirror the lady.
However most ladies know the first move is coming and seldom are in-line with the men {whether it's due to the lead, follow, or both} - on this step in, some men may take a small shuffle-step with their right foot to line up properly for the pivot-out when they step back on the left.

{I also found this thread: rules for stepping back}

As to which foot to step back on; for the lady, there should be no diference in the feel of the lead - the hands move in the same motion with the same preasure. But it looks completley different. Stepping back with the right involves less 'twisting' and it's eaier than trying to mirror the lady perfectly. It's more of a "latin" feel and you are not 'loosing' the connection with your partner - your are paralelling your partner instead of mirroring them. down side is that it can be seen/used as a 'perv' move.
Why it's demoed stepping back on the left? - untill recently it's always been taught that way. It also leaves less room to be taken advantage of.

Personally, it depends on the music and the 'feel' of the dance as to which variation I use. (basket and first move follow the same principle)

Yesterday, prancing round to loud sounds as I carried out my kitchen chores (one of the dubious joys of living alone), I discovered the Salsa wiggle. Is there a place for that in Ceroc? Or is that altogether too poncey?

there is always place for a wiggle... in fact I'm sure there is a whole thread devoted to it. {I'm married with kids and it dosn't stop me prancing arround the kitchen - I think it's a side-effect of Ceroc addiction. That judging every piece of music you hear anywhere on it's danceability }

And, Gadget, the spell check has found not a single error, even after my generously self-served amber nightcap. How about that?

I'm impressed

[Jive Brummie]

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

I've looked around but haven't yet found that thread.


Do as the teacher says, or do as the teacher does?

This comes up in the First Move (count 4 I think) where the couple have come together, side by side, facing opposite ways. The man moves his left hand, and the ladies right, to his right and downward towards her left hip and she starts her half C/W pivot to face the same way. At this point the teacher simply says something like, "Men step back, it doesn't matter which foot." But it surely does, as the dance looks so much better if the partner's legs mirror each other in this and similar situations.

Hey Whitebeard...good questions...keep it up.

Right, on beat two of the first move the position should be, standing side by side, man facing one way the lady the other, mans left hand at his left shoulder with his right hand on his partners right hip....(not waist