Beginners - How do we keep them ???

[BeeBee]

Going by the results so far of the poll, it seems to be the teachers and taxi dancers are the people who are mainly driving the business by not driving the punters away. As a beginner to this malarky, I think its fair to say that the venue (especially in the summer - bring on the air conditioning . . .) and the general fun atmosphere makes the whole experience relaxed and welcoming.

Having been out busking though (mostly handing out the flyers and talking to the potential members) it was always the women who were appeared keen to try (financial incentive aside) than the men. So when the come along, bright and shiny to their first night and are met with a poor men:women ratio they dont come back. The word on the street was that there was too many women, and not enough men. Get the husbands / boyfriends / partners / pals / whatever to come along and you might even better retention of the ladies? Mission impossible, I know . . .

Anyhoo, I love it, and word of mouth (i.e. nagging?) has seen some friends and colleagues join me at the jiggin'.

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by Emma

I think it's interesting in the light of the fact that the demonstration at the beginner's lesson has recently been axed...

I have been getting to the classes late so I did not know this, and am surprised. I had heard long ago that they were considering dropping the demo so as not to extend the lesson by adding the warm-up, but did not think it would happen.

I believe in the old circus maxim - tell them what you are going to do, do it, tell them you have done it.

However I have heard many beginners gasp at the demo and say "I can't do that". This is not a good attitude to start with. OTOH the enhanced sense of accomplishment when they find that they can do that may be worth it. This is why we have trials, to test our theories. Howver is anybody doing an objective analysis of the results?

[Emma]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

I believe in the old circus maxim - tell them what you are going to do, do it, tell them you have done it.

Ha, always thought that was a teaching maxim - 'Tell 'em what you're going to teach, teach 'em it, tell 'em what you taught 'em.' Works for me

Originally Posted by Bigdjiver

However I have heard many beginners gasp at the demo and say "I can't do that". This is not a good attitude to start with.

AFAIK (and I am hardly the font of all knowledge on the Ceroc front!) this was precisely the reason for it's demise

Originally Posted by Bigdjiver

OTOH the enhanced sense of accomplishment when they find that they can do that may be worth it.

I guess there are valid reasons both for having it and not having it. My personal opinion remains that it's a shame it's gone. Those who never saw it will probably never miss it.

[Lory]

Hmmm, the old, half full, half empty glass senario........

Some people will look at the demo in horror and think 'I'll never be able to do that', instantly feel intimidated and lose confidence.

But, the next person may look at the demo in awe and think Wow, I'm actually going to be able to do that at the end of this lesson! I'm of the latter frame of mind, therefore, alway's loved the Demo! And if I fail, I fail! There's always next week!

OK, another suggestion.... have a glass half filled with water. On entrance, ask the punters, half full or half empty? Decide whether or not to do the Demo that evening based on the results!

[Forte]

Originally Posted by TheTramp

I still think that chains work best.

Much better than ropes. They can bite through the ropes if you give them enough time....

Trampy

I came back for the music and the dancing...then someone invited me to the pub afterwards and suddenly it was a social thing, too. (For months I had been too shy to go to the pub when asked then when I did go I realised droves of them in Glasgow went ! Very nice people they are, too!!) Then when I moved city I had to start all over again and this time it was an experienced dancer (who pretends he is just a beginner) who kept asking me to dance each week and really made me want to improve...

[Forte]

Originally Posted by Lory

.

But, the next person may look at the demo in awe and think Wow, I'm actually going to be able to do that at the end of this lesson! I'm of the latter frame of mind, therefore, alway's loved the Demo! And if I fail, I fail! There's always next week!

OK:

I love the demo. Not only do I like to dance...I also like to watch...

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally Posted by Lory

Hmmm, the old, half full, half empty glass senario........

or the other personality type would say 'Hey I ordered a cheeseburger

Originally Posted by Lory

Some people will look at the demo in horror and think 'I'll never be able to do that', instantly feel intimidated and lose confidence.

Never met anyone like that, surely they wouldnt bother turning up at all if they really felt it was beyond them? There probably are people that leave after 1 or 2 lessons on a fairly regular basis but theyll see everyone else dancing, theyll know what its all about and the demo or lack of demo in the class is unlikely to be the reason they dont come back. A reason for having the demo is so they know what they are aiming for in the class, can't think of any reason for NOT having it.

[Rachel]

Originally Posted by Emma

...in the light of the fact that the demonstration at the beginner's lesson has recently been axed... Personally though I found it hard to *believe* that I would be able to do those moves when I started out, it still spurred me on to try because I *wanted* to be able to do them. Current educational theory (fwiw) states that you need to show or tell pupils what they are about to learn, and that it helps them to know what they are aiming at. I can't help feeling that losing the demonstration takes away the 'you know what you're getting' factor.

You've taken the words right out of my mouth. I was stunned to hear the demos were being dropped, and have had several arguments with Marc about it - but, of course, he's just doing as he's been told.

You'd rarely go into any other training environment not knowing what it was that you were trying to achieve.
Rachel

[TheTramp]

I know that when I'm doing lessons (it happens occasionally), I like to know what moves I'm about to be taught...

(And of course, it does deprive me of making Bill dance to tracks that he'd normally never dance to )

Trampy

[Forte]

Learning by copying is a bona fide method and an essential one for lots of the population. Showing students/learners/participants a good role model/template no matter what the task, is a vital key to success. (IMHO) I like the demo. I need the demo...

[Emma]

Originally Posted by TheTramp

(And of course, it does deprive me of making Bill dance to tracks that he'd normally never dance to )

Generally the moves taught are demo'd individually before the teaching, so it's not a completely secret ( ) procedure, but this method ignores the proportion of learners in the class who will feel better if they have the 'big picture' first.

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Emma

Generally the moves taught are demo'd individually before the teaching, so it's not a completely secret ( ) procedure, but this method ignores the proportion of learners in the class who will feel better if they have the 'big picture' first.

Urrgghh .. seem to have missed out on something here ... is this another change to the generic Ceroc structure, taking out the demo? Is this just for beginners or for intermediate lesson as well?

If I've not totaly missed the message, I think its a mistake. The whole routine gives a mental picture upon which dancers can hang the next 30 minutes of instruction ... and ties in with best training practice. Also, especially for intermediates, some dancers will only do the class if they like the demo ... which is fair enough. If they don't see the demo, they may not do the class.

Interstingly, the only teacher I've ever see teach without a demo was Mike A, back in the only Central Club days ... possibly becaue he (al least gave the impression that) made the routine up as he went along.

[TheTramp]

Gus...

It's Mike Ellard. Not Allard.

Just thought that you should know...

Trampy

[Gus]

Originally Posted by TheTramp

Gus...

It's Mike Ellard. Not Allard.

Far 'nuff ... always getting him mixed up with another Ceroc persona, Mike Allsop.

[Magic Hans]

I stayed on with Modern Jive (Marcus Garvey) because:

a) great friendly atmosphere
b) well structured evening,
c) I'd got the hang of leading confidently by then!
d) the basics are mechanically simple .... no obligatory fancy foot work
e) it can be danced to almost anything (except a waltz!)

I didn't stay on with Salsa because

a) different classes were markedly different, I couldn't find a teacher I liked
b) I hadn't got the hang of leading confidently
c) some of the venues were a little bit dingy
d) although the music is lovely, it is a little specific.

When I look around it strike me that there are dancers who are natural leads and other who are natural follows.

Additionally, people know their own bodies to greater and lesser degrees. eg a typical office worker who spends 70% of their waking life sat behind a desk doing mental (or head work), will know their body far less than a masseur, physio, or even electricians, builders and plumbers.

Assuming the above ..... then the (worst case) challenge is to get natural men follows to learn to lead, natural women leads to learn to follow, and both to learn to be in their bodies more and their heads less.

Unfortunately, since 1994, I've come across only one teacher that has specifically taught leading and following.

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To dance with our feet is one thing
To dance with our heart is another!

[cerocmetro]

Originally Posted by Rachel

You've taken the words right out of my mouth. I was stunned to hear the demos were being dropped, .......Rachel

What demos??

Adam

[Gordon J Pownall]

Originally Posted by cerocmetro

What demos??

Adam

I think the referral is to the demonstration of the routine about to be taught as opposed to wearing T shirt with writing on the chest that says,

" If you can read this, the prat fell over"....

[Sheepman]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

I think, in nearly all cases, people pick up the vibe that they are welcome and valued.

How?
It should be fundamental to businesses dependent on people for their succes, (be it staff or clients), for those that make a special contribution to that success to be explicitly recognised.
Both of my 2 favourite venues have gone from sparsely attended, struggling affairs, to major success after years of trying. One of them is always a sell out nowadays. I don't believe my continued loyalty to both of them has had any significant impact on their success, but for one of them I have had specific thanks. So which one would I be most loyal to?

Greg

[Gordon J Pownall]

Noth of them...???

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by Sheepman

How?
It should be fundamental to businesses dependent on people for their succes, (be it staff or clients), for those that make a special contribution to that success to be explicitly recognised.

Good question. In fact, very good question. On thinking about it the positive "vibe" that I have experienced is derived from many explicit forms of recognition which were not overstated or artificial, and just not, in themselves, noticed.