A reminder (I'm trying not to rant!)

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

I think Gary's suggested reply is the correct one - no need for tongue-in-cheek at all. If the sting snaps him out of his complacency, well and good; if it doesn't, well, does the lady really want to be dancing with him? Chris

I think the guy that says 'don't you know that one then' isn't trying to put the lady down. He's just inexperienced and probably really thinks that's the reason the move went wrong (he could have put it better though). This situation is a learning opportunity. To respond with a 'sting' in it us likely to take the whole encounter away from the learning zone.

Having said that, I recently had a similar situation to the one above but in reverse. I was standing chatting with RobC and Debs outside in the hall on my first ever night at Ceroc Godalming (great, non-smoking, venue. Nice friendly people). A young woman came out of the hall and said to RobC "I'm looking for an advanced dancer". RobC obviously wanted to be alone with Debs because he offered my services. As the woman has asked for an 'advanced dancer' I tried to be one. Her dancing was very jerky, she didn't maintain the frame, kept tugging my arm and 'breaking her shoulder' when she overturned. She stopped and said in a peeved manner "would you be more gentle, you're tugging me too hard" or words to that affect. I tried to lead simple moves but she still danced the same way so I said "as you've commented on my dancing I hope you don't mind if I comment on yours". I then showed her how the belly-button headlamp works and explained about trying to avoid her elbow going behind her back. She seemed a bit sulky and I thought I'd upset/annoyed her, which wasn't my intention. But we did dance much more smoothly so she did take in what I'd said. Some time later in the evening I was taking another breather (it was a very hot night) with a few people and she came outside and she walked up to me, and in a nice friendly way, sort of introduced me as her 'new teacher' and asked for her next lesson - phew!

I've given this some thought since. I now think it's inauthentic to let someone criticise your dancing for something that isn't wrong with it. That conversation is a learning opportunity for both partners, not an invitation to an argument or a put-down/"sting". That person will have the same conversation with many other people before he/she realises that the fault lies with their own dancing. They should be grateful that you've taken the time to help them improve and you should be brave enough to tell them that they need to - but try to find a non-confrontational way of starting that conversation.

And (God forbid!) maybe there is something wrong with my dancing. If my proposed solution to the problem my partner and I are having doesn't work then it could really be my dancing. And to recognise and describe a problem that I was unaware of is the first step on the journey to solving it - which might take a bit longer But you will have gained much more than you would have from a conversation that esentially goes "your dancing is rubbish", "no, it's your dancing that's rubbish". That conversation results in two people who don't want to dance together again and no improvement in the dancing of either party.

As guys we will always be competitive. We compete all the time. But the last person we should compete with and have an unconstructive argument/debate with is our partner on the dance floor. We're both in the same team

[Rachel]

Good post, Andy! Actually, it reminded me of something that happened to me a while back. At Hammersmith - my first ever dance with Roger Chin. I was dead nervous and probably dancing absolutely terribly. And Roger began saying things like, 'try not to anticipate the moves so much, hang back a little and see where the guy actually wants you to go ...'

Initially, I was a little put out, thinking, I just want to have a dance here, I don't want to be given instructions .... Then I started thinking, 'hang on - I'm being given some expert tips here - it's like private tuition on my own dancing, some people pay a fortune for this!' So I was really pleased. And now I always try and remember those tips whenever I dance, and, when I'm taxiing, pass them on to other people. One day, I might even break my bad habit of anticipating ...!
Rachel

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Andy

They should be grateful that you've taken the time to help them improve and you should be brave enough to tell them that they need to - but try to find a non-confrontational way of starting that conversation

Anything like that I've encountered, my opening gambit is normally along the lines of "that didn't feel right, mind if I do it again?" ~move~ then "can you try ..." Subtle, but it appears that the lady is helping you rather than you helping them; a lot less objections or negatives. (and it gives me a chance to actually work out exactly what is going on.)

The other thing is if the lady does something they feel is wrong and apologises for it - creates a nice opening to smile, give some re-assuring words and suggest how to improve on it.

[Sheepman]

Originally Posted by jivecat

then he says "Oh, don't you know that one then?"

If a guy says this, he is clearly revealing that he doesn't know a lot, experienced dancers will know that it is not up to the lady to "know the moves" (OK, I accept there are lots of "choreographed" exceptions.) So maybe ladies should see it as the guy doing a bit of self criticism, even if he didn't mean it that way. I know that's a bit hard if he then proceeds to try and teach the move!
So yes, Gary's answer is absolutely the correct one:-

Originally Posted by Gary

I believe the correct reply is "Oh, don't you know how to lead that one then?"

but as has already been said, it's hardly likely to engender peace and harmony.

I have danced with loads of dancers over the years that have failed to impress me with their abilities at the time, (and I'm sure this applies vice versa). Rather than unrequested criticism, I'm sure encouragement, and enjoying the dance, are much more likely to lead to someone being more interested and trying harder. There have been very few occasions on which I have offered any criticism, because there have been very few occasions on which I've been specifically asked to do so.

Greg

[DavidY]

Originally Posted by Gadget

Anything like that I've encountered, my opening gambit is normally along the lines of "that didn't feel right, mind if I do it again?" ~move~ then "can you try ...".

I sometimes say "I didn't lead that right, can I try again?". Which is similar, but I think Gadget's response is better than mine.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by Sheepman

I have danced with loads of dancers over the years that have failed to impress me with their abilities at the time, (and I'm sure this applies vice versa). Rather than unrequested criticism, I'm sure encouragement, and enjoying the dance, are much more likely to lead to someone being more interested and trying harder. There have been very few occasions on which I have offered any criticism, because there have been very few occasions on which I've been specifically asked to do so.

Greg

Absolutely right Sheepy. I don't go looking for trouble by criticising my partners, I usually try to dance at my partners level and say something complimentary at the end of the track.

We're there to have fun. I enjoyed myself just as much as a blissfully-ignorant-of-my-failings beginner as I do now as a totally-aware-of-my-failings experienced dancer. On the other hand I'm delighted if someone I respect tells me how I can improve. And I think that's the answer, as Rachel implied in her comments about Roger Chin, you've got to earn someone's respect before they'll accept your coaching You won't do that if you're rude - especially if it's the first time you've spoken.

[Lory]

Everyone's different, I've got friends who I know would be mortified if anyone said anything less than complimentary about their dancing, let alone criticise it.

But I really appreciate it when, as Andy says, someone I respect, gives me a few pointers.

The other night, I was dancing with Dale (groovy dancer) and he started a move I dread, as soon as he lead me into it, I said, Oh no, I'm rubbish at this! But instead of moving on, he took the time to talk me through it, letting me practice it again and again, boring for some I know But I was very grateful to him for being so unselfish and taking time out of his freestyle to show me!