A reminder (I'm trying not to rant!)

[Rougeforever]

Please, gentlemen. Please. I'm imploring you:

If you ask a lady to dance, please have some regard for her dancing, and don't just throw your favourite intermediate moves at her until she is so dizzy she can't even remember her name.

Please.

I danced with a lovely chap at a venue in the Midlands tonight.

He threw some intermediate moves at me. I fluffed them. (I've only done about 5 intermediate classes).

He then threw some more at me. I fluffed them too.

Then, for a bit of variety he threw a little manspin in, followed by some more intermediate moves I didn't know.

I was very relieved at the end of the dance. I even joked with him 'Can't we do the armjive for three minutes ?'.

Maybe I should have been more vocal in telling him he was confusing me. Maybe I should have said "lead beginner moves only!".

Sadly this dance really knocked my confidence (when you spend nearly a whole track getting it wrong and looking like a one-legged prawn it happens) and I ended up rather more upset than I should be. (I'm VERY insecure about my dancing, and how I don't seem to be able to improve).

Don't let it come to this, gentlemen ! (I'm sure you don't).

Please, try and make your partner feel comfortable. I like dancing with men who throw in the occasional strange move - (maybe one move in 8 - gives me the other 7 to settle) but this was ridiculous.

Oh, and I need to develop a thicker skin.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by Rougeforever

Please, gentlemen. Please. I'm imploring you:

If you ask a lady to dance, please have some regard for her dancing, and don't just throw your favourite intermediate moves at her until she is so dizzy she can't even remember her name.

Please.

Here are some of the things women have said to me when I've done this to them

1. "Could you try to do moves that don't involve so much spinning as I'm starting to feel really dizzy" - he might see this as a challenge to find suitable moves. I would ask the woman if she'd like to sit down.

2. "I'm sorry, I've got to sit down I'm so dizzy" - I know the guy might feel insulted but you shouldn't let a guy keep spinning you until you can't even stand up.

3. "Can you show me how to do those moves without getting dizzy?" This would mean he slows right down and shows you how to spot on him and not look at the floor/your feet when you spin.

The guy sounds really nice (I nearly fancy him myself from your description ), I'm sure he would be mortified if he knew he'd caused you a problem. Just about every dancer I've known has been nice and if he's a decent dancer he'd be only too pleased to help you

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally Posted by Rougeforever

I danced with a lovely chap at a venue in the Midlands tonight.

He threw some intermediate moves at me. I fluffed them. (I've only done about 5 intermediate classes).

He then threw some more at me. I fluffed them too.

I think you should look on this as a confidence boost - he obviously didn't think you had fluffed the moves

The more experienced leaders are very good at leading their partners into moves that they(the partners) will be comfortable with, but for some of the guys (who are struggling with all of the other things they have to try to remember to be a good lead) this can be more difficult. As Andy said I'm sure the gentleman in question would be horrified to think he had upset you, or left you thinking that your dancing is not improving.

I find that I tend to fall back on certain moves in freestyle when I'm leading - although if I know the lady is a beginner I will tend to lead only beginner moves - but not always

Perhaps your partner was also using the freestyle to try out some newer moves - and so wasn't leading them properly - therefore, you shouldn't be upset that you didn't follow exactly as you think you were meant to.

There do seem to be one or two men, who like to see how often they can get the lady to spin in one dance, but thankfully they are few and far between.
When Franck is teaching he tells the men in the class to be careful not to spin the ladies too often, some ladies love spinning, others don't .
Personally, I think the situation you've mentioned is a good reason for all leaders to try following every now and then.

Looking forward to dancing with you in September at the BFG

[Gary]

Originally Posted by Rougeforever

He threw some intermediate moves at me. I fluffed them. (I've only done about 5 intermediate classes).

He then threw some more at me. I fluffed them too.

I (obviously) wasn't there, but maybe you coped with the moves much better than you thought you did? Doing a new move might well feel different, but you could be doing it perfectly (I've often had to reassure girls that what they'd done was perfect).

Alternatively, I've heard that some guys think trying lots of tricky half-learnt moves impresses the girl they're dancing with. I'm pretty sure it doesn't, and I don't know where they'd get the idea.

I do try tricky (well, tricky for me) half-learnt moves in social dancing, but I always apologise and back off when they go pear-shaped, and only one or two in a song.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Rougeforever

He threw some intermediate moves at me. I fluffed them.

No you didn't.

He then threw some more at me. I fluffed them too.

No you didn't


You didn't fluff anything. He failed on two counts:

- to choose moves that you would be comfortable with

- to lead the moves in such a way as to enable you to follow them

This is a situation I see all the time - it really is incredibly common. Guys who know lots of complicated arm-winding moves but who can't lead a single one of them attempting to dance them with beginners or early intermediates who just end up demoralised and thinking it's their fault.

I've said this before, but it is the guy's responsibility to sense where his partner is at, and lead moves that are appropriate. And on the subject of leading - I would bet quite a bit of money that if you felt that he "threw" moves at you he wasn't leading them at all.

Moves need to be led from beginning to end, and for the most part the guy needs to know exactly where the lady's body needs to be on every step of every move in order to lead it properly.

And speaking from my own experience as well as my constant observations, it is incredibly easy for a guy to think he's leading well when in fact he is not. I like to think these days that I have a pretty good idea of when I'm leading well, and no doubt I'm a lot more sensitive to this than I was a couple of years ago. But from time to time I still find myself surprised (usually when practising with Jayne) to discover that a move that's going wrong is my fault when I was under the impression it was, er, not

So please don't feel bad, and please don't be shy of telling a guy to stop attempting to dance moves that you can't follow.

It really is the guy's fault most of the time, and certainly in your case. Even if he could do moves that you can't yet, it is still his responsibility to choose ones that you can, and any guy who thinks he's a good dancer should be able to do this very easily.

Good luck

Chris

[Gary]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

It really is the guy's fault most of the time, ...

I assume anything that goes wrong on the dance floor is my fault. It's a very good general rule.

There was this one incident where my entire responsibility was to stand still, and the girl ran up and instead of jumping to my hip, kicked me in the ankle. I have trouble (to this day) understanding how it was my fault, but I'm sure it was, somehow.

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally Posted by Gary

There was this one incident where my entire responsibility was to stand still, and the girl ran up and instead of jumping to my hip, kicked me in the ankle. I have trouble (to this day) understanding how it was my fault, but I'm sure it was, somehow.

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

I've said this before, but it is the guy's responsibility to sense where his partner is at, and lead moves that are appropriate. And on the subject of leading - I would bet quite a bit of money that if you felt that he "threw" moves at you he wasn't leading them at all.

Moves need to be led from beginning to end, and for the most part the guy needs to know exactly where the lady's body needs to be on every step of every move in order to lead it properly.

I totally agree Chris, however, this is something that comes with experience and practice. Maybe the man Rougeforever danced with is one of the "look at all the complicated moves I know" merchants but maybe he's just learning too

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Sheena

... this is something that comes with experience and practice. Maybe the man Rougeforever danced with is one of the "look at all the complicated moves I know" merchants but maybe he's just learning too

Absolutely. Totally agree. I'm not excluding this possibility at all.

And when I was in the "just learning" category (not that I'm not, now), knew lots of moves but didn't realise I wasn't leading them very well, it would have been great if someone had asked me to dance simpler ones.

I was very fortunate to realise that it was all my fault once when I had what I thought was a mediocre dance with a mediocre dancer, and then saw her dancing with someone else, and she was absolutely awesome.

As the realisation that I was nowhere near as good as I thought started to dawn, it felt truly awful ...

... but it was the single most important thing that has happened to get my dancing on to the right track.

I do think that without the right advice, it is a genuinely difficult thing for guys to realise that it's their lead, not the ladies' following, that needs to improve - and even the nice ones might be a little reluctant to believe it at first (guess how I know ).

The upside of all this is that once a guy starts to get his lead sorted out, it is amazing how all the girls improve too - all at the same time

Chris

[Zuhal]

Originally Posted by Rougeforever

Please, try and make your partner feel comfortable. I like dancing with men who throw in the occasional strange move - (maybe one move in 8 - gives me the other 7 to settle) but this was ridiculous.

Anyone recognise this scenario:

Lady is led into a First Move and finishes it for you despite the variation planned
You can see the brain identifying each move and completing it regardless of the potential of a partner dance.
You perform simple moves until Lady is following the lead then spring an intermediate move with a very firm lead.
“Oooh err I do not know that one�
“Apparently you do because you have just executed it perfectly�

I endorse Madame Rouge’s point about the balance of the complex to simple moves.

It is necessary to get the Ladies past this stage so that they enjoy the dance rather than think about moves. That’s our JOB.

BTW what was the male female ratio like at your venue last night, compared to a football free evening?

Zuhal

[Lory]

Originally Posted by Sheena

this is something that comes with experience and practice.

I agree, there's nothing like experience, you can have the best lead ever but when your faced with a new or unexpected move it can feel awkward, even though you've followed it correctly and its only when you've done the move several times it starts to feel natural.

I remember when I first started dancing, I was dancing with a VERY good lead, he stood there for ages wagging his fingers behind his back, I was totally oblivious, smiling away, until he said (almost shouted) Grab it, grab the hand! OH right! sorry, I said, I didn't see it! I giggled(that's cos I didn't even know to look for it) but now, I can sort of just sense when someone's about to do that move, even before their hand is there!

So don't loose confidence! As Gary said, you probably did better than you realise!

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally Posted by Lory

until he said (almost shouted) Grab it, grab the hand! OH right! sorry, I said, I didn't see it!

Well thats just silly, if I ever do any sort of signal and its missed by my partner I do something else instead, its a dance, not a test

As for rougeforever - it sounds to me like shes putting herself down - it also sounds to me like the guy was happy with the way shes followed the moves, maybe the guy finished just assuming it was a great dance with an intermediate dancer....he may never know different unless she tells him.

[Emma]

Originally Posted by Rougeforever

Sadly this dance really knocked my confidence (when you spend nearly a whole track getting it wrong and looking like a one-legged prawn it happens) and I ended up rather more upset than I should be. (I'm VERY insecure about my dancing, and how I don't seem to be able to improve).

It's awful when someone or something does that to you. Your dancing is improving, and you know it! I seem to remember a recent post about how you felt your following was improving - and this thread proves it actually cos if you hadn't been following him he would have had to do beginner's moves.

I find that in the nasty circumstances of having a dance with someone which makes you feel like a one-legged prawn (and it happens to everyone once in a while) the best thing to do is find someone nice who you know you like dancing with, tell them you've just had a rotten time and have a lovely friendly dance to build your confidence back up.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Rougeforever

If you ask a lady to dance, please have some regard for her dancing, and don't just throw your favourite intermediate moves at her until she is so dizzy she can't even remember her name.

I do say 'I'm getting dizzy' if I am - some of us get dizzy easier than others and it also depends on how tired I am (get dizzy a lot more quickly when I am tired) - its OK to tell the guy to spin you less (and he should listen!). Also, why do some guys feel they have to dance a lot of intermediate moves? A mix of intermediate and beginner moves, done with style is just as good a dance.

I have had guys apologise to me when I get a move wrong, even when I am sure its completely my fault, real gentlemen!

[Lory]

Originally Posted by Rougeforever

looking like a one-legged prawn

It's OK as long as you don't smell like one!

Incidently, how many legs has a prawn usually got anyway

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Lory

but now, I can sort of just sense when someone's about to do that move, even before their hand is there!

That's because the initial lead is not in the offered hand, it's in the connection with the hand you've already got.

The offered hand before (for instance) a pretzel is not a signal for the lady to leap forward enthusiastically to take it - she takes it after she's been led in to a distance where taking it is comfortable.

A pretzel can perfectly well be led with the lady blindfolded, providing her hand is at about waist height. Tricky to fast music, since the guy can easily fumble the catch, but Ok to slow.

Chris

[Jayne]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

A pretzel can perfectly well be led with the lady blindfolded,

Oooooh did someone mention blindfolded dancing??? Any excuse Jayne, any excuse....

J

[Gadget]

Firstly, it is very, very hard for a lady to "fluff" a move; especially one that you don't know.

The only way that it may feel like it is if (when) you anticipate a part of a move that the lead is changing and half commit to the anticipatory action, then realise the lead is continuing in a completely different direction and half stumble into that.
Even then, a good lead should be able to pick up on the direction the lady is travelling and adjust his lead accordingly; the lady may feel slightly more resistance than normal in that little bit of the move ("oops - you didn't want me to do that, did you?"), but the move should continue and finish how the lady anticipated it.
To me, this is half the skill of leading - being able to adapt and adjust any move to accommodate the lady; not "forcing" the lady into a move that she may have mis-interpreted my lead on.

When ladies don't know a move and are suddenly led into unfamiliar territory, they can't anticipate; so you have to follow the man's lead out onto more trodden paths. This makes it fairly easy for the men to lead - no pre-conceptions.

As with Zuhal, I've had some comments along the lines of the following:
"I don't know this move!"..."yes you do - you've just done it"
"What do I do here?"..."e