How do you teach spinning?

[Rachel]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

...
That said, though, I still think it's largely the difficulty beginners experience with turning and spinning on the spot in the early days that contributes most to the 'unwanted travelling' phenomenon - judging by how infrequently spinning is taught, and how relieved the beginners and improvers in my taxi review classes sound when I offer to do a spin teach.

Chris

This is a good point - how do you teach beginners to spin??

If beginners ask me how to spin, I have no problems telling them how I do spins. But this is different from actually teaching them, isn't it, and I'm never quite sure how best to go about that.

Do you start progressively, starting them with half turns, and building up gradually to a full/double spin? Do you get them to try spotting straight away, or is that something you encourage later on? [Who was it, BTW, who told me it was b*ll**ks that spotting didn't make you dizzy - was that you, Chris? ]. Or do you just give them a load of good advice and get them to launch into full spins straight away?

Any ideas?
Rachel

[MartinHarper]

Spotting later on, please. If I try to do to many things at once, I fall over.

[Trish]

Originally Posted by Rachel

Or do you just give them a load of good advice and get them to launch into full spins straight away?

Any ideas?
Rachel

That's what I do! My cousin tried to teach me to spin (she's a ballet teacher), she taught me the theory anyway, which I guess is all you can do on a carpet! What she taught me was the theory of spotting (which I'm still not very good at, having dodgy shoulders/neck), the idea of pulling yourself up tall so that your not likely to collapse in the middle and send you spin squiffy, and the idea of leading with your arm. If I'm taxiing and helping someone with their spin I tend to go with the pulling yourself up bit (which is easy to grasp) and the stepping forward (slightly diagonally) on the ball of your foot and leading with your arm, (which again isn't too hard for someone to get on with). This does tend to improve people's spinning, even if it doesn't make it perfect, and most beginners are really happy with this level of improvement. Lots of encouragement and sometimes some talc is also needed! I guess if they come to you and ask about double spins then spotting, half turns building up etc might work better.

Hope this helps Rach!

Trish

[Rachel]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Spotting later on, please. If I try to do to many things at once, I fall over.

Genuine question - wouldn't it make spinning easier to learn if spotting was taught right at the beginning?
R.

[Rachel]

Originally Posted by Trish

I tend to go with the pulling yourself up bit (which is easy to grasp) and the stepping forward (slightly diagonally) on the ball of your foot and leading with your arm, (which again isn't too hard for someone to get on with). This does tend to improve people's spinning, even if it doesn't make it perfect, and most beginners are really happy with this level of improvement.

Yes, thanks - that's all I tend to do with beginners at the moment - tell them to pull in tight, no flailing about with their arms/head, etc etc.

I don't know if/that you can lead spins with your arm, though, can you? Do you mean snapping your arms in quickly to give you the speed/momentum to get going? I always think of spins as being lead by the feet and turnout of the legs - is that just me?

Marc teaches a kind of half spin as part of the class warm up which I think is probably useful, but doesn't talk about spotting or use of the arms there. He also sometimes teaches men a method of turning where they tuck one leg behind the other, put their weight on it, then just unwrap themselves. (I can't do that, personally!) Do any other men do this?
R.

[MartinHarper]

He also sometimes teaches men a method of turning where they tuck one leg behind the other, put their weight on it, then just unwrap themselves. (I can't do that, personally!) Do any other men do this?

I was taught this in Jazz Jive, and I really recommend it. One place I use it routinely is the man's half turn in the pretzel - getting all those arms in the right place can be tricky: a crossed-leg spin is normally fast enough to get back on the beat. It's also nice for adding a male spin to moves like the Cerocspin. I'm guessing that followers can't do this one, though, because you need to know in advance that you're going to spin on the next beat so you can cross your legs.

[DangerousCurves]

Can I raise an associated difficulty? - Men who won't raise their arms!

I am admittedly a tall woman (5ft 9), and I will only be separated from my sparkly heels by brute force... so I acknowldege that I do contribute to the problem, but I am really getting fed up with guys who cannot be bothered to raise their arms up high enough so that I can turn or spin under them.

Almost 50% of my dance partners offer an arm raised to about nose level and seem to expect me to duck under it whilst somehow looking artistic and graceful. Usually I can feel myself taking the whole weight of the man's arm as I raise it to an appropriate level.

Now: here's the revelation: I'm not complaining about shorter gents here. If a guy genuinely can't reach - that's fine; we'll manage something between us. However, I notice that the problem does not tend to come from the shorter guys; by and large they've worked out they need to stretch a bit to reach over ladies' heads and they make the effort. No! Its the average sized guys who are the offenders; the ones who are used to being able to lazily reach over a 5ft2 lady and don't seem to realise that additional extension is needed for taller women.

It really badly pulls you off balance if you have to start bending mid-manouever; or if the hand supposed to be supporting you from above is in fact so low that it's more like one of the hazzards on an obstacle course. Some gents also favour a little "bobble" of the hand mid-turn - and if the hand is low this just finishes the lady off with an unexpected and undeserved bang on the back of the head!!

C'mon guys... s-t-r-e-t-c-h !

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Rachel

This is a good point - how do you teach beginners to spin??

I claim no originality here - I use Amir's technique.

For left handed spin:

Step back left, step forward left, spin on left, finish feet together, step back left.

Substitute right for left for right handed spins.

Key points:

- rubber soles make it harder
- feet close together during spin - no flamingoes
- spin starts with upper body not legs so 'wind up' a bit in the opposite direction for a bit of impetus.

If really struggling, exercises like stand on one foot and do 1/8 turns maintaining balance, progressing to 1/4 turns etc.

I encourage practice - a minute or two per day, which is how I progressed from totally crap to occasionally Ok. They never do though

Chris

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Rachel

Do you get them to try spotting straight away, or is that something you encourage later on? [Who was it, BTW, who told me it was b*ll**ks that spotting didn't make you dizzy - was that you, Chris? ].

It might have been, but I hope I put it slightly more diplomatically than that

I can only speak from my own experience which is that spotting makes me more dizzy since the head whips round faster at the end of the spin.

My theory is that once someone has done so much spinning that they want to get really good and spot as well, they are already getting less dizzy than they used to - but only because this happens with practice anyway.

I'm now trying to spot a bit, and I don't get anywhere near as dizzy doing it as I used to.

I don't teach spotting to beginners - far too much for them to handle IMHO.

Chris

[Rachel]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

I claim no originality here - I use Amir's technique.

For left handed spin:

Step back left, step forward left, spin on left, finish feet together, step back left.

Substitute right for left for right handed spins.

Key points:

- rubber soles make it harder
- feet close together during spin - no flamingoes
- spin starts with upper body not legs so 'wind up' a bit in the opposite direction for a bit of impetus.

If really struggling, exercises like stand on one foot and do 1/8 turns maintaining balance, progressing to 1/4 turns etc.

I encourage practice - a minute or two per day, which is how I progressed from totally crap to occasionally Ok. They never do though

Chris

Thanks, Chris, good points there. Particularly the balance exercises - I like that.

I always tell ladies that the shoes make a hell of a difference. Spinning's just so much easier when you've got leather soles on a slippery dance floor! All you need then is a bit of balance...

Originally Posted by ChrisA

It might have been, but I hope I put it slightly more diplomatically than that

Yes, I think you did, to be fair!
R x

[Rachel]

Originally Posted by DangerousCurves

... Almost 50% of my dance partners offer an arm raised to about nose level and seem to expect me to duck under it whilst somehow looking artistic and graceful.

Christ, there's absolutely no chance of being able to spin if you have to duck your head under someone's arm! Wonder why they do this??

... and I will only be separated from my sparkly heels by brute force...

Quite right, too!
R x

[Sheepman]

Originally Posted by DangerousCurves

No! Its the average sized guys who are the offenders; the ones who are used to being able to lazily reach over a 5ft2 lady and don't seem to realise that additional extension is needed for taller women.

No argument from me here, but I do have a plea from the opposite corner, and that's those ladies who force the hold about a foot above their heads, no way can you properly lead multiple spins, or give the "supporting halo" at that distance.

IMO the hold should be an inch or 2 higher than the ladies head, different partners prefer different heights, but any more than 4 inches is excessive!

Greg

[MartinHarper]

Almost 50% of my dance partners offer an arm raised to about nose level and seem to expect me to duck under it whilst somehow looking artistic and graceful. Usually I can feel myself taking the whole weight of the man's arm as I raise it to an appropriate level.

Interesting. As I understood it, guys are supposed to raise the handhold to indicate/lead a turn, and then girls are supposed to take over and place it at a comfortable level for them to turn under. Perhaps this reduces the problem of men raising the handhold too high, or too quickly, and putting their partners off balance?

Incidentaly, when dancing with shorter partners, I regularly have to turn under my own arm at about nose level. I was taught that the way to do this gracefully is to bend the knees to attain the correct height, and then perform the spin at that height. Worth trying?

[Sparkles]

Originally Posted by Sheepman

No argument from me here, but I do have a plea from the opposite corner, and that's those ladies who force the hold about a foot above their heads, no way can you properly lead multiple spins, or give the "supporting halo" at that distance.

IMO the hold should be an inch or 2 higher than the ladies head, different partners prefer different heights, but any more than 4 inches is excessive!

Greg

I agree completely, and personally I try to leave the man to judge where is best to hold his hand above my head when he wants me to spin, however being a taller lady this also means that the frequency with which I get smacked on the head with either my own or my partner's hand is excessively high
Hmmm, maybe I should get a couple of inches taken out of my ankles to solve the problem...

[Trish]

Originally Posted by Rachel

I don't know if/that you can lead spins with your arm, though, can you? Do you mean snapping your arms in quickly to give you the speed/momentum to get going? I always think of spins as being lead by the feet and turnout of the legs - is that just me?

Marc teaches a kind of half spin as part of the class warm up which I think is probably useful, but doesn't talk about spotting or use of the arms there. He also sometimes teaches men a method of turning where they tuck one leg behind the other, put their weight on it, then just unwrap themselves. (I can't do that, personally!) Do any other men do this?
R.

Yes I do mean lead from your arm/shoulder. I was taught (by both my cousin and Michalea) that your spin is likely to be straighter, more controlled and quicker if you do this - ie have a straight arm and pull this round with your body following it, rather than pull your body from your feet. Also it doesn't put as much strain on your knees/ankles. I find it works for me, and have never had the strength in my legs or balance to pull myself round from there. I think you do this without realising it Rachel, as you tend to lead the spin by turning your head and spotting and you have your arm up at shoulder height at the same time.

Never got that snapping your arm in on the spin thing, you'll have to teach it to me next time we're dancing in the car park at work(!) - I like it, it looks good !

I have done Marc's half spin thing when leading (probably not as gracefully as he does! ) but I think Martin is right and it's difficult to do as a follower.

Originally Posted by Dangerous Curves

It really badly pulls you off balance if you have to start bending mid-manouever; or if the hand supposed to be supporting you from above is in fact so low that it's more like one of the hazzards on an obstacle course. Some gents also favour a little "bobble" of the hand mid-turn - and if the hand is low this just finishes the lady off with an unexpected and undeserved bang on the back of the head!!

I also find this problem, and I'm only five foot three and a bit! I think there are just some very lazy men out there. I'm sure it's not the guys from the forum though , as far as I know I've only danced with about two of them, and they were lovely!

[Sheepman]

Originally Posted by Sparkles

the frequency with which I get smacked on the head with either my own or my partner's hand is excessively high

Sorry!

Greg

[jivecat]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

Key points:

- rubber soles make it harder
- feet close together during spin - no flamingoes
- spin starts with upper body not legs so 'wind up' a bit in the opposite direction for a bit of impetus.

When I first began ceroc I was continually frustrated by my completely naff spins. It didn't really start to improve until I ditched the beat-up old Ravel boots I was dancing in and got some decent dance shoes.

It took me a good few weeks to work out that you use the left foot for anticlockwise spins, and the right foot for clockwise spins. ( I think, my spatial awareness is not a strong point!)

I eventually noticed, by observing good dancers, that spins look better if you keep your feet close together with the non-weighted foot very close to the floor.

I was entranced once by watching a lovely dancer from the B'ham area do effortless triple spins- she, and others, have told me that they just practised in the kitchen at home, pushing off the doorpost, until they could do it. I've started to notice that I often use my partners' shoulders in the same way to get a bit of impetus into the spin. Am I supposed to do this? Noone's complained yet!

I don't know which bit of me leads the spin, I'll think about it next time.

Considering that spinning is such a crucial part of the dance I'm always amazed that so little direct advice is is given from the teacher during the lesson. I had to work much of this out for myself. However, Emma Pettit's style workshop at Daventry contained lots of focussed training on spinning techniques and was very useful.

If really struggling, exercises like stand on one foot and do 1/8 turns maintaining balance, progressing to 1/4 turns etc.

I encourage practice - a minute or two per day, which is how I progressed from totally crap to occasionally Ok. They never do though

I think this is excellent advice. I think it would be good if half a minute of this was included in every Ceroc class. I'm bored with moves, moves, moves and would like loads more teaching based on technique, style and musicality. However, I know most of the punters wouldn't want this. Or having to do repetitive practice. But it seems to me that no worthwhile gains in the physical skills such as balance that people have advocated on this thread are going to be made without it.

Incidentally, much has been said on the forum about injuries caused by drops, aerials, yankers etc, but I think poor spinning technique can also lead to injury. Careful training of beginner blokes might prevent the horrible feeling of being forced into endless off-balance spins, spins in the wrong direction when caught on the wrong foot and the jolts and stresses caused by sudden and unpredictable changes of direction. My own ability to spin has now improved and I am more able to cope with whatever the leader throws at me but when I started it was a real problem.

[drathzel]

i do that... I spin around in work and people look at me odd!

[Whitebeard]

Originally Posted by DangerousCurves

I am admittedly a tall woman (5ft 9), and I will only be separated from my sparkly heels by brute force...

I'm just under 5ft 10in, which used to be considered well above average for a man. But so many are so tall these days that I often find myself facing, if that's the word, women towering well above me. In these circumstances I really find myself streching up on tiptoe during turns to clear that carefully coiffed (sp?) hair. On several occasions in early days I failed and destroyed in a fraction of a second that which had taken minutes in front of the mirror to achieve. The shame of it.

Now that I have a little more time to think I consciously try keep my eye on that handhold where possible and keep it 2 or 3 ins above the ladies highest point. Now, what's that in centimetres?