The yo-yo

[Whitebeard]

Originally Posted by Chicklet

What's the "official line" on hand hold when the guy has the lady's hand across his chest?

I learned that he has to KEEP HOLD of the hand if it's a yo-yo and flattening the hand with the ladies hand on his should make the lady expect a push spin sending her behind him....If i get a flat unheld hand I WILL GO! ......

More or less, but that HOLD is pretty tenuous and should be little more than a 'connection', and herein lies the difficulty for the lady in being quite positive about what's coming next. Several time I've had ladies go flying off into a Hatchback spin whilst I thought I was leading a Yoyo with a steady non-accelerating right arm extension.

The rule I've been taught is that for the Yoyo the connection is normal. That is, ladies hand 'draped' over man's with just enough pressure to maintain the connection. Normally, too, there will probably be a some curvature in the man's fingers to return a little pressure. However, in the Yoyo, where the man's hand goes flat against his shoulder, in the way taught, that return pressure disappears and the lady is left to maintain the connection with no feedback. I can see how, at this point, the lady is left wondering what comes next. Somehow, as the man's hand sweeps out and round the normal connection has to be regained with enough return pressure to convince the lady not to let go. Perhaps this is an instance where the thumb (the one that's supposed to keep out of the way!) could come into play to give a more unambiguous signal not to let go.

In the Hatchback the instruction is for the man to take the right hand flat against the left shoulder, with the partners' hand lying flat on top of his hand. Easy enough in class where the lady is told what to do, but just how do you lead this in Freestyle? An alternative offered is for the man to rotate his hand so that the palm is facing outward as it rests at the shoulder. That's a pretty unambiguous and positive lead but I find it awkward and uncomfortable. Another indicator of an impending Hatchback flick is a stamp of the foot. Very satisfying for the stamper but perhaps a tad annoying to other dancers throughout the dancehall!!

Originally Posted by Chicklet

..... quite a few newer male dancers frown at me and get flustered.

Gee Chicklet, I might look flustered and perplexed but I'd never frown at you.

[Nick M]

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

More or less, but that HOLD is pretty tenuous and should be little more than a 'connection', and herein lies the difficulty for the lady in being quite positive about what's coming next. Several time I've had ladies go flying off into a Hatchback spin whilst I thought I was leading a Yoyo with a steady non-accelerating right arm extension.

I thought that if you hold on its a Yo-Yo, and if you let go, its a hatchback. There's no way she can spin behind you if you keep hold of her right hand.

And if you dont hold on, then she keeps spinning (using the principle that a lady keeps moving until you stop her)

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Nick M

I thought that if you hold on its a Yo-Yo, and if you let go, its a hatchback. There's no way she can spin behind you if you keep hold of her right hand.

And if you dont hold on, then she keeps spinning (using the principle that a lady keeps moving until you stop her)

Yup .. thats why the key point is the signal with the hand ... and the ladies not over anticipating.

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Nick M

I thought that if you hold on its a Yo-Yo, and if you let go, its a hatchback. There's no way she can spin behind you if you keep hold of her right hand.

And if you dont hold on, then she keeps spinning (using the principle that a lady keeps moving until you stop her)

I thought that the lady should go where you lead her. I also was under the impression that tension and compression were all that was required to lead, not "grip". You should be able to lead both moves with boxing gloves on and still be able to get the lady to differentiate between them.

The lady does not keep on moving until you stop her - she follows a lead. If the signal from the man disappears, then either she stops or she does her own thing: she should not just keep going. The lead can/should follow the momentum of the move; but without leading the whole thing, you are relying on the lady knowing the moves and completing them for you. This means that you are no longer in charge, will find it hard to lead any variations properly, encourage laziness in your lead, encourage lady's anticipation, and lead to the downfall of human civilisation as we know it!

{well, that's the principles I work to anyway }

[Nick M]

Originally Posted by Gadget

I thought that the lady should go where you lead her. I also was under the impression that tension and compression were all that was required to lead, not "grip". You should be able to lead both moves with boxing gloves on and still be able to get the lady to differentiate between them.

I wasnt talking about grip. "Let Go" was shorthand for "fail to provide the requisite tension/compression". Apologoes for the confusion.

Originally Posted by Gadget

The lady does not keep on moving until you stop her - she follows a lead. If the signal from the man disappears, then either she stops or she does her own thing: she should not just keep going.

{well, that's the principles I work to anyway :wink}

At Pete Trimmer's excellent "Mental Jive" class in Rock Bottoms, I learned an alternative principle (maybe I mislearned it - thats always possible), which involves momentum. If you lead a lady into a move, she keeps going until you provide a counter lead. You can see that with spins - the lead is fairly brief, then the hand goes over her head providing a pivot (no longer offering tension and compression). If you want her to stop - bring your hand down, or block the spin. She should not stop moving as soon as she fails to feel compression or tension - she needs at the very least to complete her spin or turn or whatever

In the Yoyo, you "provide the requisite tension/compression" so that she knows not to keep turning. If you "fail to provide the requisite tension/compression", then she keeps going. Granted that this is not the whole of the lead, but its an important part. IMHO

[spindr]

Originally Posted by Gadget

I thought that the lady should go where you lead her. I also was under the impression that tension and compression were all that was required to lead, not "grip".

Isn't it quite hard to generate tension in the handhold without a grip?

Originally Posted by Gadget

The lady does not keep on moving until you stop her - she follows a lead. If the signal from the man disappears, then either she stops or she does her own thing: she should not just keep going.

Sorry Gadget -- going to disagree here -- the follower should keep moving in the direction they were last led. Strictly speaking they shouldn't really stop, or turn back to the leader, or "do their own thing". A lot of moves rely on the follower continuing to move the way that they were led in previous counts, e.g. Glides.

The leader can then interrupt the follower, so as to dance "interruptions" to the original lead direction.

SpinDr.

[Gadget]

:roll up sleves:...

Originally Posted by spindr

Isn't it quite hard to generate tension in the handhold without a grip?

Normal tension is through finger tips pulling on finger tips - I suppose that it technicaly could be called a "grip" since the texture of the skin and tension is preventing sliding; but to me a grip involves more of the fingers and/or hand actually wrapping round your partners; like the ballroom or butterfly grip.
Most of the lead for the yo-yo is in compression anyway

Originally Posted by Nick M

If you lead a lady into a move, she keeps going until you provide a counter lead.

Sorry Gadget -- going to disagree here -- the follower should keep moving in the direction they were last led.

{Not sorry at all:makes for good debate }
Only if they were led to: There is tension throught the whole lead - a slight "friction" that you feel dragging. It's like moving in water, not space:
If I stop, I expect that natural friction to slow and stop the lady. To continue this momentum I will give some propulsion in that direction.
To expand on that anology; if the lady moved as in space, then she has no input into the dance - she just goes with the momentum and has no idea of what's happening or where she will be next. The man has to start and stop her.
However if they give that bit of resistance, then they are feeling the lead and have more of an input into the dance; they get (and give) feedback, can act as well as react, and it becomes a dance with your partner.

Strictly speaking they shouldn't really stop, or turn back to the leader, or "do their own thing".

But that's not dancing with your partner - you may as well use a cane or other prop: If I cease to give them any lead, then I expect them to carry on dancing - not just carry on moving.

A lot of moves rely on the follower continuing to move the way that they were led in previous count.

Some walks (and other moves) require leading a pattern, then removing the physical lead, but a visual lead continues; the same pattern without the hand hold. It is "broken" by resuming the physical lead - but the move is still led.

Originally Posted by Nick M

In the Yoyo, you "provide the requisite tension/compression" so that she knows not to keep turning. If you "fail to provide the requisite tension/compression", then she keeps going. Granted that this is not the whole of the lead, but its an important part. IMHO

If I just extended my arm out with a hatch-back hand, but a yo-yo lead, what would you expect to happen?
First, I would expect the lady to be confused. I would expect her to perhaps turn about 90º and hesitate, then get flustered and either turn back to the yo-yo position, or force a spin to complete a hatch-back. A beginner would not recognise the hatch-back hand, so would turn back. A more experianced lady would complete the spin. An advanced lady would not get flustered and probably slowly rotate over two or three beats (maintaining the momentum given at the release) and see what happened.

I think I will try an experiment tonight

[MartinHarper]

If I just extended my arm out with a hatch-back hand, but a yo-yo lead, what would you expect to happen?

If I did that and (at full extension) flicked my hand downwards to break connection, I'd be attempting to lead the lady to stay still, but not connected (with that hand). This is precisely the lead I was taught for Nigel's clicks

[MartinHarper]

If you lead a lady into a move, she keeps going until you provide a counter lead. You can see that with spins - the lead is fairly brief, then the hand goes over her head providing a pivot (no longer offering tension and compression).

I was taught a gentle circling motion in the speed and direction of the spin. Perhaps a few centimetres in diameter, depending on the follower. I'm not sure how much this is a lead, and how much is just mutual reassurance.

[tsh]

Originally Posted by Nick M

I thought that if you hold on its a Yo-Yo, and if you let go, its a hatchback. There's no way she can spin behind you if you keep hold of her right hand.

And if you dont hold on, then she keeps spinning (using the principle that a lady keeps moving until you stop her)

If they want to spin, there's not much I can do about it. Equally, if they're determined to hang on, it makes the hatchback a bit of a non-starter! I seem to achieve about a 50% success rate in finishing the move as I intended, for both yo-yo and hatchback.

If I'm feeling spitefull, especially if the following is very assertive, I might keep trying till I manage to lead the move I wanted

Sean

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

If I did that and (at full extension) flicked my hand downwards to break connection, I'd be attempting to lead the lady to stay still, but not connected (with that hand). This is precisely the lead I was taught for Nigel's clicks

Ahhhh, so that's what that move is called
If I was doing this, I would first make sure that I the lady's other hand before letting go. Also, the timeing and hand hold is different to do that:
You lead into the yo-yo, then release the hand once the lady is stationary (poss released with a little 'pulse' to indicate when the "click" is starting).
With the hatch-back lead, the lady's palm is flat on the back of your hand - no hand hold or "grip" to release.

But back to the original point: is the "proper" way to do the next bit to turn 90º or 180º ??

{Btw I'm about 95% with leading the yo-yo and hatch-back - and that 5% is with complete beginners who only know one of them}

[Lou]

Originally Posted by Gadget

Ahhhh, so that's what that move is called But back to the original point: is the "proper" way to do the next bit to turn 90º or 180º ??

Nope - the proper way is to stay still! But I'm never going to convince you of that, am I?

btw... am dead chuffed that afterfive links to an archive of my old site in its description of Nigel's Move!

[Gojive]

Before this thread started, I thought I had a fairly clear idea of how to lead a yo-yo or a hatchback - after all, it always seemed to work, with beginners/intermediates/Ceroc/non-Ceroc alike, but now? .....

I think I might just drop the move from my repertoir!

[Lou]

Originally Posted by Gadget

I think I will try an experiment tonight

OK. The results of the Yate experiment:

My able assistant Sheila followed, as I led. And I tried a number of variations of a Yo-Yo (which she found amusing, or at least she tolerated).

• The standard Yo-Yo. Perfectly fine, if a little dull.
• The step forward instead of stepping back - odd lead as it pushes the lady out a bit too far, but still OK.
• The standard & a bit of a walk from side to side in the middle one - weird.
• The standard one and push-spin let go of the lady - actually quite interesting.
• Rotate 90 degree as you push the lady out one - quite cute.
• Rotate 180 degree one - now you're talking.
• Rotate 180 degree one, and travel the push spin back, changing places - absolutely fantastic. I *heart* that Yo-Yo. Infact I'm gonna register it & call it Lou's Yo-YoTM.

So - how did yours go?

[DavidY]

Originally Posted by Lou

• Rotate 180 degree one - now you're talking.
• Rotate 180 degree one, and travel the push spin back, changing places - absolutely fantastic. I *heart* that Yo-Yo. Infact I'm gonna register it & call it Lou's Yo-YoTM.

With a build-up like that, I can't resist trying it. How do you travel the push-spin & change places?

Also does your experience with the basic 180-degree variation suggest that Ceroc got it right when they made this the "beginners" Yo-Yo?

[Lou]

Originally Posted by DavidY

With a build-up like that, I can't resist trying it. How do you travel the push-spin & change places?

Also does your experience with the basic 180-degree variation suggest that Ceroc got it right when they made this the "beginners" Yo-Yo?

Just lead the lady, like you would a travelling return (it's not really what I'd call a push-spin, as that implies (to me) you let go of the lady, but Gadget I think used the term earlier). It flows quite nicely.

Turning 180 degrees seems harder to me, but that might be because of many years of autopilot.

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Gadget

it sounds as if you rely on the lady to know the move and lead you into the preperation

Heh. Tonights dancing told me that, when I don't concentrate on leading the yoyo properly, that's not too far from the mark. It seems I tug half-heartedly on the lady's hand, she turns whatever number of degrees she feels like, and I turn to match her. It's every-return-is-a-travelling-return syndrome all over again. Tut.
On the other hand, why bother trying (and often failing) to lead a particular yoyo variation, when you can just coast through it and let the lady do whatever she's used to?

Rotate 180 degree one, and travel the push spin back, changing places

Let me get this straight. You're in an elbow-elbow, flat hand, tension thing with right hands. Both left hands free. You push away with your right hand to get the girl to free spin... but in such a way that she does a travelling free spin towards you, past you, and ending up behind you?
Wow. That's some leading: you deserve it to be named after you.

[Lou]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Let me get this straight. You're in an elbow-elbow, flat hand, tension thing with right hands. Both left hands free. You push away with your right hand to get the girl to free spin... but in such a way that she does a travelling free spin towards you, past you, and ending up behind you?

Nope - hang onto the hand!