Dancing as a woman

[Daisy Chain]

Originally Posted by Lory

..., it feels like I'm dancing with another me).

to all women who can lead!

I know exactly what you mean. I love dancing with women (not cos I'm funny) but because it's a much lighter experience than a dance with most men. Maybe it's because women move their feet!


I have 3 classifications for men as dancer partners which I derived from cars that I have driven:

Most men are diesels and feel very heavy

Some are petrol engines and are pleasantly manoov..........manoeuv.........go where you want them (not that I'm leading, it's the feel that I get back from their lead)

And the odd rarity has power steering and is an utter joy


Daisy Clarkson

(A Woman Driver )

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Daisy Chain

I have 3 classifications for men as dancer partners which I derived from cars that I have driven:

I like it!
Must remember that one!

[Sparkles]

Originally Posted by Daisy Chain

And the odd rarity has power steering and is an utter joy

You've sent me off into a reverie of all my favourite dancers
Such a good description of a well led dance (be it by a male or female ).

S. x

[Graham]

Originally Posted by Sparkles

I don't know if this deserves to be on it's own thread (or a more appropriate one) but I was just curious...
I've recently observed when I've been dancing as a leader that some ladies, and men dancing as followers, follow more on visual leads than on actual leads. I find this difficult to deal with as a leader because it makes the ladies a split second behind me and the music. I would blame my lead, but it only happens with a few people, not the majority.
Has anyone else experienced this and is there a way of coping with it as a leader?
Thanks
S. x

Yes, this is quite common. In terms of coping with it, I suppose it depends on how well you know the person. If you know them well enough (or if they're a beginner) you could possibly talk to them about it. Following with your eyes closed is a good exercise if you want to try to break this habit. Also, they could try looking at your face more - a lot of beginners/improvers who follow visually have a tendency to look at your chest/hands. Another technique I sometimes use is to start improvising more, or lead moves I don't expect them to know. Finally, you could try making your lead a little earlier to keep them on time. Hope this helps, although I suspect it's mostly stuff you'd already thought of.

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

It's all lead and follow, not man and woman.

Perhaps... but I do feel that calling the-role-traditionally-danced-by-the-woman "the follow" and the-role-traditionally-danced-by-the-man "the lead" is a bit limiting - it's highlighting just one aspect of the partnership, and placing it above all the others. For a change of pace, why not call it "dancing as a frame" and "dancing as a picture"?

[Sparkles]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Perhaps... but I do feel that calling the-role-traditionally-danced-by-the-woman "the follow" and the-role-traditionally-danced-by-the-man "the lead" is a bit limiting - it's highlighting just one aspect of the partnership, and placing it above all the others. For a change of pace, why not call it "dancing as a frame" and "dancing as a picture"?

Excuse me ... bleurgh!
That's all.
Carry on.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Perhaps... but I do feel that calling the-role-traditionally-danced-by-the-woman "the follow" and the-role-traditionally-danced-by-the-man "the lead" is a bit limiting - it's highlighting just one aspect of the partnership, and placing it above all the others. For a change of pace, why not call it "dancing as a frame" and "dancing as a picture"?

Modern jive is a lead and follow dance. One partner leads and the other follows. It is a fundamental component of this dance form: almost nothing else is.

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Sparkles

I've recently observed when I've been dancing as a leader that some ladies, and men dancing as followers, follow more on visual leads than on actual leads.

When I'm dancing as a picture ()

-> I spy the guy's palm at waist height.
-> The guy's offering me a hand at waist height.
-> When I offer a hand at waist height, I want the girl to take it.
-> I'm the girl, so I should take the hand.
-> Take the h.... hey, where'd it go?

I should note that while this little mental calculation takes place I'm incapable of following anything short of a foghorn...

[Sparkles]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

When I'm dancing as a picture ()

-> I spy the guy's palm at waist height.
-> The guy's offering me a hand at waist height.
-> When I offer a hand at waist height, I want the girl to take it.
-> I'm the girl, so I should take the hand.
-> Take the h.... hey, where'd it go?

I should note that while this little mental calculation takes place I'm incapable of following anything short of a foghorn...

Ah, so you are one of these people that follows visual leads!
Have we danced before?
Maybe you should read Graham's tips for 'leaders' and reverse them ?

I agree that the best way of stopping this is to get the 'follower' to dance with their eyes closed (not all the time, just to show them they don't need to see what you're doing in order to dance). I've had people do that to me before and you really have no need to see where you're going as a follower - it's most enlightening .

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

When I'm dancing as a picture ()

-> I spy the guy's palm at waist height.
-> The guy's offering me a hand at waist height.
-> When I offer a hand at waist height, I want the girl to take it.
-> I'm the girl, so I should take the hand.
-> Take the h.... hey, where'd it go?

I should note that while this little mental calculation takes place I'm incapable of following anything short of a foghorn...

This is, of course, complete rubbish. The woman is put into a spin and offers her hand at waist height as she completes her spin, the guy takes it. If the woman wants to spin again she keeps her hand away from the guys hand - which is ready at her waist height.

If you are being the follower you should not take the guys hand, you should let him lead you by taking yours - which you have placed in front of you and at waist height for him to take.

N.B. This must be the first time I've written anything about actual dance technique. But I couldn't resist writing this as Martin Harper has got it so very, very wrong - what makes him think he's such and expert?

[spindr]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

This is, of course, complete rubbish.

Hmmm, I have sympathy with both views

If the man doesn't *actively* offer his hand, then the lady shouldn't try to take it, just because his hand is "available" isn't an invitation for her to take it. Then it is the man's option to catch the lady's hand if she has made it available, or wait until she finishes her spinning "sabotage" and then makes her hand available at waist height as she grinds to a halt.

However, if the man *actively* offers his hand, then the lady should try to take it -- either with her free hand, or the hand that is nearest (or the right if there is a tie ).

Oh and by actively offering, I mean placing his hand so that the follower can easily see it early enough, e.g. palm facing the follower -- maybe wiggling the fingers as an extra cue in social dance.

SpinDr.

[Graham]

Just to reinforce what Andy has said - the follower should always present the right hand (unless they are improvising and don't want their hand to be taken just at the moment thanks very much). The leader will take the presented hand or not. There is no need for the follower to even think about whether the leader is offering a hand. This is why following with your eyes shut works (and is such a good exercise).

[Chicklet]

Originally Posted by Graham

Just to reinforce what Andy has said - the follower should always present the right hand (unless they are improvising and don't want their hand to be taken just at the moment thanks very much).

Graham - you forgot to write in edited by Wendy

sorry, please continue

[MartinHarper]

We've had this "debate" before:
Hand signals a thing of the past?

I think it should be fairly obvious that my description of what goes on in my head when I follow is meant as a warning rather than a recommendation...

[Graham]

Originally Posted by Chicklet

Graham - you forgot to write in edited by Wendy

Wendy didn't need to remind me - here in Stepford, we leaders just automatically know our place

[drathzel]

Originally Posted by Graham

Wendy didn't need to remind me - here in Stepford, we leaders just automatically know our place

Good to know... anymore men there that know their place?

[CJ]

Originally Posted by drathzel

... anymore men there that know their place?

Don't just tell me... put me there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sheepman]

Originally Posted by Sparkles

I do wonder, however, that it may be that we each know the guys we dance with in different contexts - someone that you (Lory) are very UCP with may be someone that I don't know particularly well and vice versa - and I think this will mean that we will dance with the same guy in different ways. Whereas, of course, when we dance with each other we know each other equally well, so we probably use styles to compliment each other without even knowing we're doing it.
Maybe the guys can confirm this theory for me?

Yes and no.
I have to admit that I don't get to dance with Lory that much, but in my experience, with some styles of music, your styles would be quite similar, but not so in others. Of course this could essentially be down to me assuming differences, and so that would come out in my leading different things. And yes that probably comes down at least in part to the rapport and how well you know someone.
Hmm I think I'm going round in circles here, there must be a blues track playing ...

Greg

[Graham]

Originally Posted by Ceroc Jock

Don't just tell me... put me there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It would take a brave woman to try and put you in your place.

[CJ]

Originally Posted by Graham

It would take a brave woman to try and put you in your place.

Lory managed!!