Dancing as a woman

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by spindr

It's a bit wierd why MJ is so asymmetric -- in salsa turns and spins are led from all hand/hand combinations.

I believe that it's due to Jive's descent from early forms of formal ballroom dance. If a man dances in dress uniform, his sword hangs from his left hip (to be drawn in the right hand.) Therefore the only side to which he could draw his partner without getting her gown caught up on the sword is his right.

As an aside, have you ever wondered why almost every form of dance has an equivalent of the under-arm turn? I've read one website that suggests it's because it's a good way of giving the woman a good whiff of the pheremones emanating from the man's left arm-pit.

(What a lovely thought.)

[spindr]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

I believe that it's due to Jive's descent from early forms of formal ballroom dance. If a man dances in dress uniform, his sword hangs from his left hip (to be drawn in the right hand.) Therefore the only side to which he could draw his partner without getting her gown caught up on the sword is his right.

Well international ballroom dance have reverse turns as well as natural turns -- so that's a little odd. Plus, salsa cross-body lead goes past man's left side, as does WCS left-side pass?

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

As an aside, have you ever wondered why almost every form of dance has an equivalent of the under-arm turn? I've read one website that suggests it's because it's a good way of giving the woman a good whiff of the pheremones emanating from the man's left arm-pit.

(What a lovely thought.)

I don't think international ballroom dances do -- although their American counterparts might. Then there's unpartnered disco, etc.

My thought on MJ asymmetry is simply that the predominance of the first move shape (c.f. neckbreak/"classic" yoyo, etc.) means dancers tend to favour the lady moving past the man's right side, and clockwsise rotations.

SpinDr.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by spindr

Yep, regularly
It's a bit wierd why MJ is so asymmetric -- in salsa turns and spins are led from all hand/hand combinations.

Yes, I think that now it is taught that way, but it wasn't way back when I started learning, so my salsa tends to be very asymmetric too - probably means I need to do more classes...

Originally Posted by spindr

One "fun" left-to-left MJ variation:... <snip>

Thanks, I'll give it a try. Although she's better now though, which is good of course - but that means I can't practise on the other side, so to speak.

[Bigger Andy]

Originally Posted by Bigger Andy

I did my second class as a follower last night.

I did my third class as a follower last night.

The routine that we did was :-
'Armjive Push Spin', 'Slow Comb', 'Step Across', 'In and Out' and 'Basket'.

When we did the 'Slow Comb' the teacher was encouraging the Ladies to "wiggle". When I tried to do this it made the young lady that was leading me giggle almost uncontrollably. I can't think why !

The one main thing that I noticed about the other person's lead last night was :-
1). She had improved her lead into 2-handed moves by doing what I suggested and running her hand down the back of my spare arm so that I knew before the previous move had finished what was coming next.

Because of the relatively short time between this class and the previous class, I felt that I was at last beginning to build upon what I had already done rather than starting afresh each time. (There was a 3 week gap between the 1st and 2nd classes due to class cancellations as a result of the snow. )

Overall, I feel that my dancing is beginning to improve as my spinning is getting better and I am beginning to use my "spare" hand more.

I don't feel (yet ! ) that I have found any areas where my own leading can be improved although I am able to pass on some tips to help the Ladies that are learning to lead.

It was another fun and interesting experience !

[Bigger Andy]

Originally Posted by Bigger Andy

I did my third class as a follower last night.

I did my fourth class as a follower last night.

The routine that we did was :-
'Armjive', 'Man Spin', 'Ceroc Spin', 'In and Out' and 'Octopus'.

Again, I danced with a different leader last night. So far, after 4 classes as a follower, I have danced with 3 different leaders.

One thing that I noticed last night was that, although the leader was a tall lady and was wearing heels, she seemed to have more trouble than the other leaders in getting her hands up high enough for me to turn underneath.

This is something that I have also noticed when leading ladies into 'Arm Curls'. With this move, each dancer is supposed to move their right hand like a cricket bowling action in turn as they go around each other. Most of the ladies don't really get their arms right up and a number of them just go around with their arms at waist level. I'm not too sure what the move looks like if one dancer is raising their arm all the way and the other isn't. It must look a bit odd.

This phenomenon is also apparent in sports with most ladies finding it difficult to throw a ball overarm.

Is there some physiological reason why ladies find it difficult to raise their arms to the full extent ?

The most difficult move that we did last night was the 'Ceroc Spin'. However, once I started stepping forward onto my right foot before being led into the spin it became a lot easier. It was quite interesting to see how little attention people in the class were giving to what the teacher was saying. I noticed a lot of followers instead of stepping forward onto their right foot ended up compensating by either stepping back with their left foot or coming up with some other sort of shuffle , even though the teacher was clear in describing how the move should be done.

So overall, I am beginning to find the classes quite straight forward.

There was only one thing that threw me last night and that was during the freestyle when I was led into a 'Catapult'. It was the first time that I had done that move as a follower and it just didn't work very well at all. It seemed to go wrong right at the end when I was led into the spin. I remember saying at the time that I hadn't been spun that way before, but thinking about it afterwards, that is not the case ! I have learnt the 'Armjive Push Spin' and the 'First Move Push Spin' in previous classes and in each case I am being spun in a clockwise direction - just like at the end of the 'Catapult'.

There are 2 differences that I can see :-
• You are being spun using a leaders horizontal hand movement rather than a vertical hand movement used in a 'Push Spin'.
• You are being led into the spin with your left hand whereas in the 'Push Spin' the leader, although pulling on your left hand slightly, is mainly pushing on your right hand.

I can't really see why either of these two differences should have caused the effect that I felt.
Have any other followers out there had the same experience as me and could suggest any possible explanations for this occurrence ?

It was yet another fun and interesting experience !

[Aleks]

Originally Posted by Bigger Andy

There are 2 differences that I can see :-
• You are being spun using a leaders horizontal hand movement rather than a vertical hand movement used in a 'Push Spin'.
• You are being led into the spin with your left hand whereas in the 'Push Spin' the leader, although pulling on your left hand slightly, is mainly pushing on your right hand.

I can't really see why either of these two differences should have caused the effect that I felt.
Have any other followers out there had the same experience as me and could suggest any possible explanations for this occurrence ?

It was yet another fun and interesting experience !

You are being asked to travel and turn at the same time. You might find it easier if, from the position at the left side of the lead (count 4?) you put your weight on your left foot and step diagonally in front of the lead (on your right foot) BEFORE you think about turning, bringing your left foot close to your planted right one, using it to help you turn.

It's really difficult for me to explain moves without showing them so apologies if this doesn't make any sense.

[Bigger Andy]

Originally Posted by Aleks

It's really difficult for me to explain moves without showing them so apologies if this doesn't make any sense.

No, that description is clear to me.

Thanks for your help.

I think that the biggest problem is that I was trying to do a move that I had NOT been taught in class and consequently I didn't know the correct way of doing it.

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Bigger Andy

She seemed to have more trouble than the other leaders in getting her hands up high enough for me to turn underneath.

In these cases, I normally figure that I am being lead to do one of three things:
1) Get closer to the floor.
2) Apply upward pressure with my hand, so that it lifts just above my head, allowing me to turn underneath it.
3) Some sort of neck wrap thing.

If I smack my head on my lead's arm, that's my "fault".

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

If I smack my head on my lead's arm, that's my "fault".

As we've said before, it's never the follower's fault - look at it this way, you get to blame the lead this time

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

As we've said before, it's never the follower's fault

There is a smokescreen of aphorisms like this: how it's "all in the lead", and the women "just follow". Despite not being true, they are helpful to me as I work to improve my lead. This makes them all the more alluring when I switch to follow mode, as they offer an escape from all that effort. I don't believe that succumbing to these particular sirens will improve my following.

Besides, I'm hardly the type to be satisfied with "just following".

Originally Posted by DavidJames

- look at it this way, you get to blame the lead this time

Bleh. I'd rather dance.

[Bigger Andy]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

As we've said before, it's never the follower's fault - look at it this way, you get to blame the lead this time

All the time that I am still learning to follow I am very appreciative of any ladies that are prepared to lead me.

I want them to be happy to continue to help me in the future.

Getting things wrong and blaming the lead would not be something that I would do in this scenario !

I would not want to criticise their lead (although if they are learning to lead and want some feedback themselves I would be happy to oblige).

[frodo]

Nice to see the Japanese Prime Minister setting an example on page 12 of todays Guardian

Also.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/4390753.stm

[baldrick]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Has anyone tried much leading by holding the follower's left hand instead of her right

Yep, do it as part of my "lets puzzle the world" campain. Amazing that it can take 3 moves before a follow figures out why what is happening feels so wierd.

Did the other side of man follow. Lead one of the guys in Glasgow. On comparing note we agreed that we needed a strong lead (neither have been doing follow long) Our experiances with experianced leads, were that they could not cope with/overpower our uncertanty(lack of technique). Sometimes we just needed a good strong assertive woman.

[drathzel]

Originally Posted by baldrick

Yep, do it as part of my "lets puzzle the world" campain. Amazing that it can take 3 moves before a follow figures out why what is happening feels so wierd.

Ahh, but how long before you realise she is using the wrong hand!!!!

[baldrick]

Originally Posted by drathzel

Ahh, but how long before you realise she is using the wrong hand!!!!

As far as I was aware it was the correct hand. Mine

[BeeBee]

[quote=baldrick]Yep, do it as part of my "lets puzzle the world" campain. Amazing that it can take 3 moves before a follow figures out why what is happening feels so wierd.
QUOTE]

It throws me every time! (But then again, it doesnt take much . . . ) Up for another try at it tomorrow at JJs Balders?

lx

[Tessalicious]

Originally Posted by baldrick

Sometimes we just needed a good strong assertive woman.

Hey, that sounds like a challenge, one that I would be most willing to accept on behalf of assertive women (leaders that is) everywhere - if you're ever in London, come and have a go (if you think you're, erm, ladylike enough...)

[ducasi]

Originally Posted by Tessalicious

Hey, that sounds like a challenge, one that I would be most willing to accept on behalf of assertive women (leaders that is) everywhere - if you're ever in London, come and have a go (if you think you're, erm, ladylike enough...)

I'd like to have a go at a beginner's class just the one time as a follower, just to see what it's like. Shame you're off in London... Any strong, assertive Glasgow women ready to take me on?

[MartinHarper]

A few thoughts in response to devil-steven's catch-22....

Originally Posted by Steven666

I'm not getting the experience to get better at following and I'm not getting to follow as the little experience I have is too apparant I assume.

Something to remember: experience in the form of freestyle is only one part of learning to follow. The lessons are also important, as is practicing skills such as balance, spinning, control, and awareness. You may progress faster if you learn from all these places.

Another thing is that any comment of the form "I've run out of moves" needs to be quickly answered with a smile and something like "I don't mind" or "You're doing great" or whatever. Beginner leaders, men and women, often feel inadequate. Helping your partner feel comfortable and confident is an important following skill.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Something to remember: experience in the form of freestyle is only one part of learning to follow. The lessons are also important, as is practicing skills such as balance, spinning, control, and awareness. You may progress faster if you learn from all these places.

My feeling is that a lot of following skills can be practiced more easily than leading skills, in that a lot of following does involve balance, turning and so on - and of course a good follower shouldn't need a leader to provide support or (much) energy into their movement.