Dancing with better dancers

[Pete]

People have said that the way to improve is to dance with better dancers. In my experience women who are really good dancers are really easy (and lovely) to dance with but I can't see how that improves my dancing (I think I can see how a woman might improve by dancing with a better male dancer: learning new moves etc).

I'm also reluctant to ask better women dancers for a dance as I assume they would rather be dancing with someone who is as good or better than them - is this a fair assumption?

What do people think?

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Pete

People have said that the way to improve is to dance with better dancers. In my experience women who are really good dancers are really easy (and lovely) to dance with but I can't see how that improves my dancing (I think I can see how a woman might improve by dancing with a better male dancer: learning new moves etc).

I've just made a comment on the Hotshots thread about feedback - which is what is great about dancing with better dancers. Another dancer recently offered some points on a few things I was doing wrong (in a nice way) and I followed that up with asking for feedback about my dancing which was very helpful. You need feedback in order to learn.

(I don't learn many new moves dancing with better men, in fact I don't think about the moves that much, I expect that they will be leading moves I don't know and so I just try to follow their lead.)

So if the circumstances are right I would say actually ask what you did wrong/right.

Originally Posted by Pete

I'm also reluctant to ask better women dancers for a dance as I assume they would rather be dancing with someone who is as good or better than them - is this a fair assumption?

I tend to think that too, to the extent of even apolgising while I am dancing (which isn't helpful for anyone!) but in practice, I don't find that. I have had some lovely dances with dancers far better than me who I don't think were 'putting up' with me. We all have to learn.

I'm not very far down the learning path yet, but I enjoy dancing with dancers who aren't yet as good as me, especially on a regular basis when you see them improving and enjoying it so much.

[Minnie M]

Originally Posted by Pete

People have said that the way to improve is to dance with better dancers..................

Sorry Lovely Lynn, but I think the above is true

The beginner lead will be able to lead the follower and the follower will 'follow' and not backlead etc., therefore the lead could try out new moves and know if they have lead them correctly.

For a follower, the good lead will give you confidence that you CAN follow

(Having a bad day today - can't type what is in my head)

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Minnie M

Sorry Lovely Lynn, but I think the above is true

The beginner lead will be able to lead the follower and the follower will 'follow' and not backlead etc., therefore the lead could try out new moves and know if they have lead them correctly.

For a follower, the good lead will give you confidence that you CAN follow

(Having a bad day today - can't type what is in my head)

Yeah, I think that's what I meant too... I was just adding that asking for feedback, in the right circs, can also be helpful as well as the dance itself. And your point about giving confidence is pretty important too.

[jivecat]

Originally Posted by Pete

People have said that the way to improve is to dance with better dancers. In my experience women who are really good dancers are really easy (and lovely) to dance with but I can't see how that improves my dancing (I think I can see how a woman might improve by dancing with a better male dancer: learning new moves etc).

I have certainly learnt a lot from people who were better dancers than me. I learnt not to be scared of more complex moves and to have the confidence to trust that my partner would lead me through it- though this only really came about when I danced regularly with familiar partners. When dancing with people who are of a much higher standard than myself this is still the most important thing that I've learnt -relax and be receptive to what it is they are trying to get me to do. I don't think I could have learnt these things from someone who was at an earlier stage of learning than myself because their lead tends not to be clear and reliable enough.
Regular practice with people who knew what they were doing also helped all the basic moves to become familiar so I could start to work on them and refine them.

I shouldn't really speak from the lead's point of view but some beginnerish men say that their tentative signals are more likely to be picked up successfully by a more experienced lady- and success breeds success. Conversely, I often hear men complain that their efforts to learn during the classes are hampered by dancing with inexperienced or inept ladies- which is why, I presume, so many fixed couples opt out of the carousel system.

I'm also reluctant to ask better women dancers for a dance as I assume they would rather be dancing with someone who is as good or better than them - is this a fair assumption?

What do people think?

This is by no means true. The social reasons for dancing are really important and are not based on dancing ability and it's always nice to be asked. Also demographics are firmly on your side as women are usually in the majority and don't get the same choice of partners as men do. I've had many very enjoyable dances with people from their first night up with a few provisos:

a. They are trying their best to learn.
b. They dance in time to the music.
c. They don't pull me about unreasonably.
d. Don't keep trying moves beyond their ability.

That's rather a lot of qualifiers. And lots of people who wouldn't consider themselves to be at all inexperienced would fall foul of some of these. But I still dance with them. Usually. So don't worry about it. Ask them.

[Leo]

Originally Posted by Pete

What do people think?

I think winter is well on it's way now,
the autumn equinox has passed and it's all down hill, wet and windy now until at least 2008.

I love this country realy.


No honestly I do.

[Leo]

[Yliander]

Originally Posted by Pete

People have said that the way to improve is to dance with better dancers. In my experience women who are really good dancers are really easy (and lovely) to dance with but I can't see how that improves my dancing

dancing with woman who are more advanced than you will improve your dancing - as they will (generally) follow what you lead not do what they think you are leading, which means that you get the feeling of really leading and learn which moves you are leading clearly and those that are a little muddled. they will play and/or add in girl lead moves if they feel you will cope and hence stretch and add to your dance skills

[Pete]

I like the idea of asking a few people for feedback - thanks for the suggestions. Still not sure whether just dancing with good women dancers will actually make me better - it just feels *easier*....

[MartinHarper]

I recall asking one lady for a dance, shortly after she came in, and being rather overwhelmed upon dancing and discovering she was utterly out of my league. In particular, I recall her footwork. With a beginner lady, if she is on the wrong foot, it normally means her weight is in the wrong place, and I tend to allow her an extra beat to sort herself, so she's ready for my next lead. This advanced lady was doing some very nice syncopations, and apparently not dumbing them down, with the result that my instincts kept thinking she was off-balance. The result was... eclectic.

That said, I felt I learnt a lot - about the possibilities available, about the degree of freedom that advanced women have, if they choose to take it, and the need to tolerate that freedom. I also learnt a little about how to recognise more advanced dancers, and how to dance with them a little more fluidly. This is all useful stuff, that I would never learn if I only ever danced with beginners.

For where I am, I'm feeling that it's probably best for me to dance with folks of varying ability levels, with perhaps one dance a month with someone completely out of my league, and the remainder spread out fairly evenly amongst folks better than me, worse than me, and about my level.

[jiveoholic]

I remember when I could speak a bit of German. The words I spoke were quite clear, although possibly not quite perfect. Other members of the class could understand me, as they had learned those words too. But when I went to Germany, I found it difficult to be understood. They naturally had a much wider vocabulary. If I got some word even slightly wrong, it tended to be misunderstood as another perfectly valid word, as they did not know how limited my repetoire was. I think there is a great similarity here with jive. The beauty of leading an expert is that she WILL misunderstand if you get it wrong and you will know it and hopefully adapt and improve.

[under par]

As much as I enjoy all my dancing, I really get a buzz from dancing with some of the better dancers.

It is an adrenalin rush to dance with the likes of LilyB (as a prime example), I just so want the dance to be great for both of us but I often get memory block and can't remember more than 3 moves. I offer apologies for the odd missed move, but carry on regardless.

Then one night.....heaven....hardly make any mistakes.... she asks me for a second dance.....wow....can I manage 2 consecutive good ones....?

The main thought really is that you up your concentration and quite often try too hard because you really really want it to be the best dance ever.

No worries though as you leave the dance floor you get a wonderful beaming smile and "Mr Par..." and a really nice comment.

Always go home smiling after that!

[tsh]

I certainly find that dancing with a good follower is helpful. I can be confident that if they do something 'wrong' then it was because of the way I led a move for example. Their timing is often better than mine, and somtimes I'll end up creating a new move! I think it also helps to not need to be so forceful with the lead as is sometimes needed with the beginners!

I do tend to avoid asking the obviously very good to dance though, untill it's clear that they're prepared to give me some of their time. Dancing with someone you know is good, and who is very obviously very bored isn't really worthwhile.

Sean

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by tsh

so forceful with the lead as is sometimes needed with the beginners!

I start to worry whenever anyone uses the word "forceful" in the same sentence as "lead". There is a very fine line indeed between

- "unambiguously guiding a beginner to where she needs to be going, and resisting her tendencies to go elsewhere"

and:

- "yanking"

The former is fine, up to a point - and judging where that point is, requires care and IMHO quite a bit of sensitivity.

The latter is not at all fine.

Chris

[Trish]

I think it really helps your leading if you dance with ladies that are more advanced than yourself. As various people have said they will follow what you've lead rather than doing what they think you meant. If a more advanced girl does something you're not expecting this is the time to jump in and say, "what was I doing wrong there? Why did she turn rather than come in to my side?" or whatever. If you ask her, she'll probably explain what you can do to improve your lead. These ladies will usually help you with any new intermediate moves you did in a class and haven't quite got too. If they always follow your lead perfectly, it's probably because you're leading well - in which case they'll enjoy dancing with you!! As Jivecat said earlier, the more advanced ladies are fine with dancing with the beginners generally as long as they make an effort, keep to the beat and try not to pull the lady's arms out of her sockets! And even if you do this, they'll keep dancing with you if you smile and make an effort to improve!

If you dance with a lady who is also used to leading she can probably teach you new moves too if you ask her (I do this for less advanced men).

The problem with dancing with beginners sometimes, is that they get used to each others wrong signals and teach each other bad habits. This is especially true with those that dance with their partners and won't dance with other people. As long as you mix it up and dance with lots of different people this isn't so likely to happen.

Hope you enjoy it all and learn loads!

Trish

[tsh]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

I start to worry whenever anyone uses the word "forceful" in the same sentence as "lead". There is a very fine line indeed between

- "unambiguously guiding a beginner to where she needs to be going, and resisting her tendencies to go elsewhere"

and:

- "yanking"

The former is fine, up to a point - and judging where that point is, requires care and IMHO quite a bit of sensitivity.

The latter is not at all fine.

Chris

True... I seem to find myself on the receiving end of the 'yanking' sometimes, and the solution isn't more force. Sometimes they move on their own, in completely the wrong way, others don't move at all, and seem to expect to be dragged about! Simpler moves are probably the answer!

Sean

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by tsh

True... I seem to find myself on the receiving end of the 'yanking' sometimes, and the solution isn't more force. Sometimes they move on their own, in completely the wrong way, others don't move at all, and seem to expect to be dragged about! Simpler moves are probably the answer!

The earlier a lead starts, the easier it is to follow. The less experienced the follower, the earlier and more progressive the lead needs to be for them to follow it.

If you can achieve this, then you'll find that the forces required are smaller, since she doesn't get the chance to build up much momentum in the wrong direction before being guided in the right one.

So I would suggest paying as much attention as you can to knowing exactly where she needs to go and leading every part of every move - a little like carefully pronouncing every syllable in a word to ensure that you can be understood over a crackly phone line.

This is much easier in freestyle than in the class, of course - in the class, if she's convinced that she knows where she's going and is determined to go there, she will, and there's not much you can do about it

Chris

[Bangers & Mash]

I always make a point of dancing with

a - new beginners
b - people who are better dancers than me
c - friends I have made through ceroc
d - the teacher

also, if I see someone do a move that I can't or that I get wrong, then I ask them if they will go through it with me.

as a result, I have made a great group of friends through ceroc who get together to dance and also help each other out with moves and going over moves.

Never be afraid to ask better dancers for a dance. I know that is easier said than done and I know that I am also put off from asking myself if

1 - I have just seen the girl give an awesome performance on the dance floor
2 - the girl has just danced with an awesome partner

but I never let that stop me and what I have learned is that the girls and the guys who really are good dancers will always help out and are often pleased to do so.

Ask the other person for feedback and don't be afraid to screw up.

For girls who get it wrong dancing with a better guy - "it is always the guys fault cos he's leading" and for guys who get it wrong dancing with a better girl - "ask the girl what she was expecting and try and work it out a second time rather than get embarassed"

IMHO

[stewart38]

Originally Posted by Pete

I like the idea of asking a few people for feedback - thanks for the suggestions. Still not sure whether just dancing with good women dancers will actually make me better - it just feels *easier*....

I learn at lot when dancing with better dancers then myself.

Walks leans drops etc you learn from them ie instead of walking like a penguin I can copy their walk etc

The problem is of course you dont dance with them all the time.

A women asked me the other nite and she has done so before why I dont do as many moves with her as her friend and the simple truth is her friend is a much better dancer. With her I can practice drops etc something ive never done much of,she will at least know what im trying to do

[Jon L]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

I start to worry whenever anyone uses the word "forceful" in the same sentence as "lead". There is a very fine line indeed between

- "unambiguously guiding a beginner to where she needs to be going, and resisting her tendencies to go elsewhere"

and:

- "yanking"

The former is fine, up to a point - and judging where that point is, requires care and IMHO quite a bit of sensitivity.

The latter is not at all fine.

Chris

Yes agree Chris, in my days when I had been dancing a year or so, I was quilty of the later point. I had to learn to keep it smooth (and I am still doing this to a point 4 years from when I started )