First Move

[MartinHarper]

A couple questions on the first move, since we recently analysed the yoyo to death...

On step two of the first move, I've been told that the ladies shouldn't rotate at all, but should stay facing in the starting direction, so that we are hip-to-hip. Does anyone know why this is meant to be? In freestyle, lots of ladies do rotate. Should I lead differently?

On step four, I've been taught two different exits. Ceroc teaches me to step feet together, and rotate the lady to the same position as step two. JazzJive teaches me to step left foot forward, and lead the girl forwards, without rotating much. Anyone have any preference, or consider one of these "wrong"?

[DavidB]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

On step two of the first move, I've been told that the ladies shouldn't rotate at all, but should stay facing in the starting direction, so that we are hip-to-hip. Does anyone know why this is meant to be? In freestyle, lots of ladies do rotate. Should I lead differently?

A slight rotation is more natural. With most ladies you would have to actively lead them to keep facing the same way. Then another active lead on 3 to turn them. This is a lot of excess leading that really serves no purpose.

I think most of the Ceroc positions are done to be easy to teach and understand in a beginners class. "Keep facing the same way" is unambiguous. "You can turn slightly" results in the thoughts "when can I turn", "how much", "which direction" etc.

On step four, I've been taught two different exits. Ceroc teaches me to step feet together, and rotate the lady to the same position as step two. JazzJive teaches me to step left foot forward, and lead the girl forwards, without rotating much. Anyone have any preference, or consider one of these "wrong"?

They are not wrong - just different. I do something completely different again. I step back on my right foot on count 3 (so that I maintain a flashlight connection to the lady.) Then I think I step slightly away from the lady on 4 to give her room to turn. I do turn the lady back in, but not all the way back to the count 2 position. (Probably half way between your JazzJive version and the 'official' Ceroc version.)
We would both be in completely different positions at the end of count 2 and count 4.

[Graham]

The first thing to bear in mind is that all basic moves such as the first move have been developed to help you learn basic building blocks which can be used to develop more complex dance movements later on, and also to get you and your partner used to the basic elements of lead/follow. One important reason for not rotating on count 2 is that you have two counts to reach the twisted out position. If you start rotating earlier the likelihood is that you will reach your end position half-way through count 3, rather than at the end of count 3. Another reason is that it's possible you were planning some move other than a simple first move, which might not work if the lady is rotated during count 2.

If lots of ladies are rotating in freestyle it's possible that your teacher isn't making the move clear enough (or is possibly even teaching the rotation), but it's likely that your lead is allowing them too much freedom. Make sure the lead with your left hand pulls her straight forward, keep your left hand well to your left as you BOTH step in, and try catching her left hip as you're both moving, before she has a chance to rotate. Don't worry if it doesn't always work - if the woman is determined you won't be able to easily stop her. The key thing is making sure your lead is early enough (before she does her own thing).

Both exit options are equally valid. In freestyle choose whichever you prefer, or vary them depending on your mood/the music.

EDIT: As David has pointed out, when the move is really flowing and natural, the distinct positions start getting rounded off, so in fact you will start the rotation during count 2. If this is working for you, there's no need to change, although during the rather more mechanical walk-through in the class it's a good idea to try and stick to the movements the teacher is doing to avoid confusing your partner.

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Graham

The first thing to bear in mind is that all basic moves such as the first move have been developed to help you learn basic building blocks which can be used to develop more complex dance movements later on, and also to get you and your partner used to the basic elements of lead/follow.

EDIT: As David has pointed out, when the move is really flowing and natural, the distinct positions start getting rounded off, so in fact you will start the rotation during count 2.

I don't think that it's quite right: you actually start to prepare for the rotation during count 2, but the lead is actually on count 3: perhaps your elbow raises slightly, your shoulder comes forward a bit, your body tenses, your hand positions it's self on the lady's hip and gets some feedback... but the movement and lead that transfers to the lady does not start untill count 3. It only really "flows" when you continue in the same direction - otherwise i t should be like a shock-absorber between changes in direction.

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

n step two of the first move, I've been told that the ladies shouldn't rotate at all, but should stay facing in the starting direction, so that we are hip-to-hip. Does anyone know why this is meant to be? In freestyle, lots of ladies do rotate. Should I lead differently?

Yes, they should be hip to hip: it's a positional thing that can be used to get into a plethora of other moves -
- Push into the lady's arm to lead her into a side-step as you side-step; slide lady's hand accross your chest and down arm to catch R-R {carefull with your trailing R hand }
- Lift and duck under the L hand then either rotate L to face or turn into a shoulder-slide
- Lift and duck under while snakeing R hand behind lady on far hip instead of infront, walk for a couple of turns, stop and continue to lead the lady behind you.
- Take the L hand above and infront of the lady while stepping 180 degrees to her left; she ends in sway position to your right
- Take L hand above and infront to turn her while turning to face; use R hand to break and draw lady in as L hand snaps straight upwards
- Let go of L hand and use R hand on hip to turn lady into a free-spin
- Block in this position, face partner as l hand extends to L and braces in ball-socket grip and R hand secures lady's hip; lunge left into a lean - lady braceing on her R hand.
... and that's without entering into any true "first move" variations like following the lady instead of turning her out, going straight into a turn rather than returning to the hip to hip, blocking after the turn out by keeping the R-hand on the hip,...

As Graham said at the start - the first move (and all other begginer moves) are not really there to show you how to do a first move, but how to lead and some of the positions that can be led into/out of.

Anyone have any preference, or consider one of these "wrong"?

No such thing as a wrong move (unless it hurts). While doing a begginer Ceroc Class, the "Ceroc teaches me to step feet together, and rotate the lady to the same position as step two" is right. While doing a begginer's JazzJive, the "JazzJive teaches me to step left foot forward, and lead the girl forwards, without rotating much." is correct. (Actually doing whatever is taught from stage is right - no matter what/how it's done )

[Mike Allsopp]

It is because the twist out comes on beat three - otherwise the woman will have twisted out and the man would still be standing with feet parallel. Don't fret too much though - it's only dancing after all

[MartinHarper]

The amount of rotation on beat two varies between ladies: normally it's 10-45°. Until recently, I happilly ignored this, but recently a couple of teachers made dissapproving noises in class, and I read Gus(?) criticising this habit in R&R-ers, so I've been wondering about it, and to what extent it might be my fault.

Originally Posted by Graham

It's possible you were planning some move other than a simple first move, which might not work if the lady is rotated during count 2.

Gadget goes on to give examples of such moves, some of which are familiar to me. When I've done those moves in freestyle, I've found myself specifically leading the lady not to rotate, primarilly via an early right hand on her left hip, as Graham suggests. It can be a harsh lead, but it does work.

So, should I always lead the lady not to rotate, or only do so when I need her to not rotate so I can lead something other than a basic first move?

Originally Posted by DavidB

This is a lot of excess leading that really serves no purpose.

This comment really spoke to my heart. I can keep my lead fairly quiet, and allow my partner the freedom to rotate or not rotate as she desires. As long as we're both in the correct position on beat three, all is well, and the dance continues.

It seems like there's a real difference in philosophy between David's advice to avoid "excess leading", and Graham's advice not to "allow too much freedom". I wonder - which approach do the ladies prefer?

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

It seems like there's a real difference in philosophy between David's advice to avoid "excess leading", and Graham's advice not to "allow too much freedom". I wonder - which approach do the ladies prefer?

I don't really think that there is too much difference in the two - if led and followed properly, there is no "excess leading"; a constant light connection is maintained through tension and compression. If the lady descides to start rotating early, she will fee a stronger resisance to start with (because the man has not started to lead it yet). If the man is being forcefull and providing a strong lead, then the resistance would be greater and the lady would really notice that something was not right.

Personally, I provide that little bit of resistance {ie reaction time}, then go with the flow - anything else in my opinion raises the risk of injury and is completley unnescissary: If I wanted to do something specific that the lady's actions prevented me from doing, I would find a way to lead it clearer next time (eg takeing two or three beats while walking backards to get to the same position as count 1.)

[Graham]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

So, should I always lead the lady not to rotate, or only do so when I need her to not rotate so I can lead something other than a basic first move?

Well I suppose this is where the advice from David and myself starts to reconcile itself. If it doesn't matter (to you) that she's rotating, then as David says, why bother correcting it? So lead the non-rotation when you're doing one of your variations, but don't be so rigid if you're not. On the other hand, if the lady is anticipating, sometimes I lead more to try and break her bad habit.

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

It seems like there's a real difference in philosophy between David's advice to avoid "excess leading", and Graham's advice not to "allow too much freedom". I wonder - which approach do the ladies prefer?

Firstly, you should take David's advice on leading before mine any day - I dream of being that good! But I don't think we're actually as far apart as it appears. I was answering more from a beginner's perspective, and was trying to keep things simple: in freestyle I generally actually dance as David described. Many of the features of beginner moves are taught not because they're the best way to do them, but because they prevent certain mistakes. In this case the "excess leading" counters the tendency of many ladies to anticipate.

[Yliander]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

On step two of the first move, I've been told that the ladies shouldn't rotate at all, but should stay facing in the starting direction, so that we are hip-to-hip. Does anyone know why this is meant to be? In freestyle, lots of ladies do rotate. Should I lead differently?

the lady shouldn't be rotating before she is lead to rotate by the guy - she may however not come in exactly hip to hip due to not stepping exactly feet together however this would only be a small about say about 10 degrees

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

On step four, I've been taught two different exits. Ceroc teaches me to step feet together, and rotate the lady to the same position as step two. JazzJive teaches me to step left foot forward, and lead the girl forwards, without rotating much. Anyone have any preference, or consider one of these "wrong"?

read these descriptions with interest as they are, if i have read them right, different to what I have learnt in Australia - so just to add to the mix here is what we are taught - after rotating the girl out (mirrored position girls back right guys back left) the guys step right foot back turning/drawing the girl to face them - then turning the lady out with the left hand and and then returning them.

[Gadget]

Was thinking about this "first move" and the feeling 'natural'...(from another thread)
It is the only beginners move that does not flow properly - the way it is taught creates "un-natural" twisting and tension. Let me explain:

Almost every move involves you (as a lead) moving in one of three ways:

• moving in the same direction as your lead hand & following your own lead.
• moving in the opposite direction from your lead hand and releasing it to turn and face/collect.
• remaining 'stationary' (body on the same plane) and leading the lady towards you.

All of the moves cause you to follow your partner and maintain a 'connection' through the dance. The only (beginner) move that differs from this is the first move...
stage1: lead the lady towards you.
stage2: push her away and move in the opposite direction.
Note - no release, no following her and no leading inwards. The 'natural flow' of the move (and the dance) has been dissrupted by moving in the opposite direction to the way the move progresses.

To slightly ammend the move and maintain the 'natural flow', you can do several things at this point without changing your lead to the lady (too much):
- step back on the inside foot, turning with your own lead instead of against it.
- step forward on the outside foot to follow your own lead.
- release the lead hand (L) as you step back on the outside foot to prevent twisting & contorting while transfering the lead to the other hand on the lady's hip/waist.
- throw the lady's hand down and away while turning anti-clockwise to face & collect her again.
- step forward and infront of the lady (r-hand over or closed in half nelson) so that your lead hand ends up at your right hip and the lady is behind you.
- remain stationary on the open out (no stepping or twisting), to release the right hand as you and side-step left to catch lady's left in right.
- remain stationary on the open out (no stepping or twisting), then side-step right, taking the left hand to right shoulder and exit as per the shoulder-drop.
...

every one of these maintains one of the principles outlined above and would 'flow' the dance more naturally than the basic first move as it's taught.
I would therefore submit that the basic first move is more "un-natural" than almost any other variation of it.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Gadget,

You knew you'd hear from me on this, didn't you? Here's a counter-opinion:

I agree there is more tension in the first move than in some other beginners moves. But there do exist lots of dance moves that don't have the leader's body following through his own lead to his partner.

So it's a good idea for at least one beginner's move to have that same feel, so one can start getting used to it from lesson 1.

And, when done as instructed (and not 'adjusted') it's an extremely elegant and classy move, more so than any of the variations you suggest, in my opinion.

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

But there do exist lots of dance moves that don't have the leader's body following through his own lead to his partner.

Like? I can't think on any that do not follow one of the principles above. (Basket twist out on the outside foot perhaps, but it's taught on either foot.)

So it's a good idea for at least one beginner's move to have that same feel, so one can start getting used to it from lesson 1.

Yup - the beginner moves are selected (/constructed) to give the basic building blocks to the rest of your dancing - I just don't think that this particular block is condusive to elegant dancing.

And, when done as instructed (and not 'adjusted') it's an extremely elegant and classy move, more so than any of the variations you suggest, in my opinion.

When done as instructed by elegant dancers it's a classy move. When an arm jive or in-out is done by elegant dancers it's a classy move. Just because movement can be classy, does not make it intrinsically so. Personally I think that the first move follow is much more elegant and classy than a standard first move - with the added advantage that it flows lots better.


OK, why step back on the left? what does it add to the dance/movement/flow? (Remember that to lead it "properly", your left hand must sweep out to the lady's far hip; any 'mirroring' is immediatly pulled off-balance by this fact.)

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Gadget

OK, why step back on the left? what does it add to the dance/movement/flow? (Remember that to lead it "properly", your left hand must sweep out to the lady's far hip; any 'mirroring' is immediatly pulled off-balance by this fact.)

Ultimately I suppose it comes down to personal preference. I *love* the move with a step back on the left. I love the way I can swoosh my left foot around if I like, I love the way I can catch my partner's eye over my right shoulder in a smouldering kind of way, I enjoy the ability to make her twist one way while I twist another. Those are all both consequences of, and reasons why, I like the move.

While I realise that MJ isn't any other form of dance and that comparisons can be misleading - it is certainly the case that for Salsa, Rumba, Cha Cha, and probably the smooth Ballroom dances too - all dances with prescribed foot patterns - when the lady's weight is on her left, the man's weight must be on his right. In the moves in those dances that are analogous to the First Move the leader has only his left foot free to move, be it back, sideways or forward.

I'll have a think about which other moves share that "he-goes-one-way, she-goes-another" feeling, and get back to you with whatever I can come up with.

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Ultimately I suppose it comes down to personal preference. I *love* the move with a step back on the left. I love the way I can swoosh my left foot around if I like, I love the way I can catch my partner's eye over my right shoulder in a smouldering kind of way, I enjoy the ability to make her twist one way while I twist another. Those are all both consequences of, and reasons why, I like the move.

so there is no technical/mechanical reason why it's better - just stylistic reasons; which are objective.
And you are relying on your partner anticipating that it's a first move so that your lead can stop before it reaches the lady's far hip.

I do the leg sweep sometimes (ronde?), but only when I push the lady out and release the left hand. I don't think it can be done by actually leading a true first move properly.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Gadget

so there is no technical/mechanical reason why it's better - just stylistic reasons; which are objective.
And you are relying on your partner anticipating that it's a first move so that your lead can stop before it reaches the lady's far hip.

I do the leg sweep sometimes (ronde?), but only when I push the lady out and release the left hand. I don't think it can be done by actually leading a true first move properly.

I think you mean 'subjective' - a matter of opinion. Yes. But I don't think your technical, or objective, issues with the first move have much merit.

If you want to see the ronde done without releasing the left hand, ask me next time you're in London and I'll show you!