Inappropriate Touching

[spindr]

I wrote this ages ago, elsewhere:

Although many organisations suggest that you should accept every request for a dance, you are under no obligation to dance with any one who does not show you due consideration, or respect. In particular, followers should not feel that they have to dance (or finish a dance) with a leader whose behaviour is inappropriate. If you ever feel uncomfortable with a partner's behaviour tell your friends, and the event's organisers - it may not be an isolated incident.

I still think the best people to tell are your friends at the venue -- so they can keep an eye on you -- and tell the event organiser (or someone in their team).

SpinDr.

[Little Monkey]

Hmmmm...

I had a bit of a nasty experience at a blues class once.... During a move where I stood with my back against the guy (standing up from the floor, bum first), he pulled me close and thrust his hips out... And he was... Well, excited?
That was REALLY unpleasant, and I didn't have a clue what to do! First reaction was that I wanted to turn around and slap him across the face!

However, in situations where you know your dance partner, and know each others "comfort zone", there can be a lot of flirting and touching, which is just fun! Dancing with Trampy last night, he (twice) exclaimed: "I can't believe I just did that!!!" Naughty boy!!

Little Monkey

[Dance Demon]

Originally Posted by Little Monkey

Dancing with Trampy last night, he (twice) exclaimed: "I can't believe I just did that!!!" Naughty boy!!

Little Monkey

He only gets away with it coz he's " just a begginer"......

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by drathzel

I know there is the occasional brush or touch that is completely by accident...

Its about intent – some guys can make something look like an ‘accident’ And other times its innocent and the guy is probably as embarrassed as the women.

And there is a big difference between close moves which are related to a woman’s comfort zone (as already mentioned) which are often OK even with a stranger and ‘touching’, which isn’t usually OK unless its someone you know very well.

If a guy does plan to do closer moves its up to him to check out if the woman is OK with that the first time he is dancing with her by actively seeking to read her comfort level. And that’s how she reacts to dancing with him, not how he has observed her dancing someone else who she may know and trust.

[Little Monkey]

Originally Posted by Dance Demon

He only gets away with it coz he's " just a begginer"......

[Graham]

Danielle, firstly I'd like to know who this person is.

On the more general point, if it doesn't feel right/look right, it isn't right. A couple of times I have touched "bits" by accident, and if my partner had commented then sure I would have been embarrassed, but I would have completely understood. If someone touches deliberately and their partner objects then either they misread their partner, in which case I imagine they'll be embarrassed but apologetic, or they didn't care whether their partner consented, in which case why should their partner care what their reaction is?

If you see someone acting inappropriately please tell the crew. If you experience inappropriate touching please either confront your partner or tell the crew.

[Magic Hans]

Originally Posted by spindr

I wrote this ages ago, elsewhere:

Although many organisations suggest that you should accept every request for a dance, you are under no obligation to dance with any one who does not show you due consideration, or respect. In particular, followers should not feel that they have to dance (or finish a dance) with a leader whose behaviour is inappropriate. If you ever feel uncomfortable with a partner's behaviour tell your friends, and the event's organisers - it may not be an isolated incident.

I'm perfectly ok if someone refuses my offer of a dance (as is her right). Although I might possibly choose not ask again for a few weeks (my right). She may not want to dance with me, as is her right. If she does, she can ask.

[Magic Hans]

Originally Posted by drathzel

But how do you tell a guy that you have been dancing with regularly before that you are uncomfortable!

Not easy.

For one, in my experience, lots of blokes have a very unclear boundary between what is physical, and what is sexual.

Also, it is very easy to get accusative when we are afronted by someone else.
Although I cannot know 100% there intention for sure, I can certainly know how uncomfortable I feel in a particular circumstance.

Who can deny how I feel? This, in my opinion, is a far more effectively way of returning feedback (positive or negative)

[bigdjiver]

And if a guy does have a "bikini" accident, what should he do?

[drathzel]

Well last night i avoided dancing with both said men. And I also mentioned to the other girl that if it happened she was told tell me or someone else (ie taxi/teacher)!

To be honest, i'm quite a chicken when it comes to these matters and will probably avoid dancing with any man i feel uncomfortable with, however if i do dance with them or anyone else that pushes things too far then i think i will say to them. It helps them as well as they may not realsie they have passed my comfort zone!

Thanks to everyone for your advice and Pretzlemiester and Baldrick for for offering to give him a "doin" if he didn't take no for an answer!

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

And if a guy does have a "bikini" accident, what should he do?

I normally make light of it and say something like "oops, that wasn't meant to go like that, sorry". That way the woman knows you know your hand should have been elsewhere - but you haven't made a big deal of it and can just get on with the dancing. I think it's important that the woman knows you know you've done it and that you've said something that makes it clear it was an accident - because saying nothing leaves them uncertain, especially if you pull a Benny Hill pervy face.

Also, I usually say sorry at the end of the track just to make sure. The girl almost invariably tells me not to worry so much about it

.. and very occasionally they tell me I can put my hands where I like

[Gojive]

Also, I usually say sorry at the end of the track just to make sure. The girl almost invariably tells me not to worry so much about it

Hmmmm.....you make it sound like this is a frequent occurrence Andy

If any of the ladies on here ever experience an 'incident' like this with me, you'll know it's an accident - I go red, say sorry, then my dancing just falls (ever further) apart for the rest of the track!

I do think though, it's time for the whole of the MJ world to start taking tougher action against the deliberates, and that could possibly start with teachers always pointing out the issue at the beginning of a class - a kind of general awareness campaign if you like.

I strongly believe, we need to start taking positive action to stamp out inappropriate behaviour from MJ now!!

[Daisy Chain]

Guilty M'Lud.

I'd like to apologise to the nice young man who I grabbed in the errrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...............dooleys last night. Not too sure who was more embarrassed but we both pretended nothing had happened

Anyway, it was his own fault for changing the move at the last second and presenting me with his trouser region and not his hand

I'll get my coat.

A Very Red

Daisy

[cheeks]

Who got more of a red face you or him...... ......

[PretzelMeister]

Originally Posted by Gojive

~SNIP~
I do think though, it's time for the whole of the MJ world to start taking tougher action against the deliberates,

Originally Posted by Gojive

and that could possibly start with teachers always pointing out the issue at the beginning of a class

I'm not sure about this though: I'm sure it wouldn't be too encouraging for beginner ladies turning up to their first beginner's class and being warned from the teacher on stage:
"...And remember ladies - watch yourself out there on the dance floor for all those sleazy pervs!"

Ok, so I know that's not what you had in mind but I think it would be difficult from the "teacher on stage" type of approach to avoid that sort of tone creeping through, not matter how well it was done.

IMVHO, I'd suggest the following:

• for more experienced dancers to keep a lookout for it happening;

• for those dancers who feel comfortable enough addressing the issue there and then to do so; and POSSIBLY to let others in the class / group / whatever know (general chit-chat). That way, can gauge a better idea if it's a 'one-off' or it's a genuine case of serial, persistent sleazing.

• for those dancers not comfortable tackling the issue themselves at the time - and I understand this could potentially be very awkward - to at least say to their friends afterwards so that perhaps one of them can approach the offender.

As I say, just some thoughts.......

PM

[Gadget]

There are certain moves that, if done incorrectly, can lead to "bikini" moments (pun intended) - and it's not just intermediate moves:

Arm jive: if the hands are not down at hip level or the 'twist' ends up twisting beyond your partner. Keep hands low. To start the move, keep feet shoulder-width appart, then just pivot on the balls of your feet to one side then the other; this moves your hips enough that you are not truley "hip-to-hip", but slightly off-set so you and your partner's fronts are on the same plane.

Basket: Hands should remain at hip level during the "twist-twist" bit and the outside hand is the only one that lifts on the exit.


Regarding teaching, I know Lisa has 'demonstrated' what not to do from stage and why {lucky demos } As has Lorna on occasion - but if the point that hands should be at hip level, shoulder level or above the lady's head (Anything inbetween is transitional between another level) is made from stage, then what more can the teachers do?

[spindr]

Originally Posted by Gadget

There are certain moves that, if done incorrectly, can lead to "bikini" moments (pun intended) - and it's not just intermediate moves...then what more can the teachers do?

Teach leaders to watch where they are about to catch a follower.

Teach leaders (and followers) to check what height their partner is and work out hip height, shoulder height, etc. before dancing with them -- this is key if you have to do "a blind" catch, e.g. behind the back, etc.

Teach a good dance frame and connection in a closed dance hold -- if the leader's a good arm's length away, then that'll reduce problems. One problem in a closed dance hand is when the leader circles, that the follower doesn't mirror that movement -- and a hand that was on, or intended to catch, a shoulder has to start to take evasive action.

Teach followers not to move towards the leader when the leader is spinning bent double with their head at hip height, e.g. in a half nelson.

Oh, and teach the followers to keep their hands at waist height in a man-spin, etc. -- and not to drop the hand -- especially if the leader does more than the usual number of turns

SpinDr.

[stewart38]

Originally Posted by drathzel

.



It was done on purpose, now this yound lady is quite shy and would not have said to this man. I have found also that when he dances with me the same things tend to happen. I dont let him get away with it though,

Problem with this, is the mixed message ie he is dreadful but when i dance with him i dont let him get away with it, ie you do still dance with him.

I use to think a taxi dancer I saw dancing with people was the greatest sleeze id ever seen. However it has to be the women who makes the decision to report not dance with again.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by stewart38

Problem with this, is the mixed message ie he is dreadful but when i dance with him i dont let him get away with it, ie you do still dance with him.

I use to think a taxi dancer I saw dancing with people was the greatest sleeze id ever seen. However it has to be the women who makes the decision to report not dance with again.

......

Though for the really inexperienced to deal confidently with a taxi dancer who's a sleaze must be very difficult.

Chris

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by stewart38

... I use to think a taxi dancer I saw dancing with people was the greatest sleeze id ever seen. However it has to be the women who makes the decision to report not dance with again.

Problem is that, for a beginner, the decision is too often not to return. A Taxi dancer shirt does carry an aura of official approval, and the beginner is likely to assume that such behaviour is part of the culture. I have never come across this, but, if I did, I think I would mention my concerns to the venue manager.
The other problem is, as has been mentioned before, if the ladies keep dancing with him, he too may be assuming such behaviour is part of the culture.