Inappropriate Touching

[drathzel]

Originally Posted by stewart38

Problem with this, is the mixed message ie he is dreadful but when i dance with him i dont let him get away with it, ie you do still dance with him.

i was hoping that by dancing with him but letting him know certain moves weren't appropiate it could help other ladies that dance with him!

[DianaS]

Originally Posted by drathzel

i was hoping that by dancing with him but letting him know certain moves weren't appropiate it could help other ladies that dance with him!

Tricky area Drazel but only you know the guy, trust your instincts here!
I think its nice that you care enough to bother. If I don't like dancing with someone I don't ask them cas chances are there are lots of people that guy likes dancing with if I wasn't there. (Unless its someone who is new, or just really nice but hopeless! or, or...)
hmm

[drathzel]

Originally Posted by DianaS

Tricky area Drazel but only you know the guy, trust your instincts here!
I think its nice that you care enough to bother. If I don't like dancing with someone I don't ask them cas chances are there are lots of people that guy likes dancing with if I wasn't there. (Unless its someone who is new, or just really nice but hopeless! or, or...)
hmm

There will always be a reason if you let it!

I just enjoy dancing so much that i would hate to be the reason that someone left/felt they couldn't go/be banned. But in the same respect i would hate for a beginer to leave because of something i could have helped stop!

[DianaS]

Originally Posted by drathzel

There will always be a reason if you let it!

I just enjoy dancing so much that i would hate to be the reason that someone left/felt they couldn't go/be banned. But in the same respect i would hate for a beginer to leave because of something i could have helped stop!

I tend to think of some guys as just "bigger boys" and it sort of helps. Sometimes they don't know how to relate to well and you can help, other times they are just behaving badly and they should feel it. There are very few (only one that I can think of) that I don't feel okay around handling. Dangerous men I stay well clear of, there are very very few of those about!
At the end of the day though I go out to meet my mates and dance. People that I don't feel so good with I don't spend so much time with I'm not at work and I'm no bodies mother!
D

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by drathzel

i was hoping that by dancing with him but letting him know certain moves weren't appropiate it could help other ladies that dance with him!

Look, Danielle, I think you're really sweet - you go a long way to give people the benefit of the doubt, and you're very optimistic about being able to influence people's behaviour in order to help others. And that's fab.

But in practice in this case, it isn't gonna work I'm afraid.

Now I'm not talking about accidents - accidentally copping a handful of something other than, er, a hand is something that happens to everyone. We blush, feel embarrassed, and move on - and everyone knows that it was an accident.

What I'm talking about is anything that makes you feel uneasy, creepy, invaded, abused, or otherwise mistreated. The sort of thing you wouldn't tolerate in the street, and like sex, if it's not with the mutual consent of both, it's not acceptable.


Like it or not, the guys that feel you up irrespective of whether you've given your consent, are not the ones that will pick up subtle hints and change their ways. Continuing to dance with people that feel you up like this gives the wrong message - which is "it's Ok (and maybe she likes it)".

The dance-floor pervs come in two flavours:

- the real predators who have no regard for your feelings, and will continue to take advantage of anyone they can until they get banned from the venue - and will then go elsewhere doing the same thing until they get banned from there.

- the ones that see other people dancing up close and personal, and assume that it's Ok for them to do it as well - regardless of who it's with. These may not be quite as unpleasant, but they are stupid. Like, they don't realise that just because they see other people doing it, and it being apparently Ok, it does not give them licence to do it too. Duhhh...

Either way, the only way they get the message is if you make it quite clear that you won't put up with their behaviour - and stop dancing with them.


If someone's behaviour makes you feel uneasy, creepy, trust your instincts. Don't dance with them (even if you can deal with the inappropriate stuff by resisting moves you don't like, why should you have to? It can hardly enhance your enjoyment of a night dancing... ), and preferably report them to the venue manager.

Chris

[Gadget]

Firstly, I'm not against the message Chris is putting forward - just the preconceptions and conclusions drawn from them. I am wholeheartedly against pervs and any mistreatment of a partner on the dance floor.

However...

Originally Posted by ChrisA

But in practice in this case, it isn't gonna work I'm afraid.

I dissagree: it might work. It depends on Drathzel's persuasiveness; and who am I to underestimate a woman's ways? I respect her for not only the thought of trying, but having the bottle to actually do it.
If the parting shot after dancing with said slease is (similar to) "If I see you doing something like this again, I will see that you are removed and banned from all classes in Scotland." :smile with sweetness: then it could work - depends on how nuch they believe her.

The dance-floor pervs come in two flavours:

- the real predators who have no regard for your feelings, and will continue to take advantage of anyone they can until they get banned from the venue - and will then go elsewhere doing the same thing until they get banned from there.

- the ones that see other people dancing up close and personal, and assume that it's Ok for them to do it as well - regardless of who it's with. These may not be quite as unpleasant, but they are stupid. Like, they don't realise that just because they see other people doing it, and it being apparently Ok, it does not give them licence to do it too. Duhhh...

No, they come in many different flavours {and I don't really want to lick them all to taste }. You are tring to assign motivation and purpose to another person's actions and come up with a reasonable (sane) explination that will allow you to define them as A or B. Everyone is different, and everyone's motivation and thought process is different.

What about those that just creep you out? Nothing specific, just exude an 'oily' air.
What about those who take an opportunity to oggle the lady's assets? Some moves allow a 'preview' of the lady's underware if you are looking in the right {wrong?} palce at the right {wrong?} time. { Only noticed every now & again - couldn't tell you which moves... although I could experiment to find out }
What about thoughts of "mmm - that was nice; and I didn't get any negative feedback.. I wonder what else I could get away with..."
or "look how close my hand is - if I just move it a bit... cor..."
or "'hand lower than hip level' - cool - just place your butt in my hand..."
or ...*

There could be a whole plethora of 'reasons' behind the deliberate actions - however there are no excuses for them.

Either way, the only way they get the message is if you make it quite clear that you won't put up with their behaviour - and stop dancing with them.

You won't put up with it and dance with me, but she might. Or her. Or her. Drathzel is trying to ensure that no other women have to put up with it - not an "I won't put up with this", but a "We won't put up with this."


* I have a good imagination and read lots - just because I can imagine these thoughts does not mean they would spring to my mind when dancing; to be honest there's not that much room left in there while dancing.

[CJ]

Originally Posted by Gadget

* I have a good imagination and read lots - just because I can imagine these thoughts does not mean they would spring to my mind when dancing; to be honest there's not that much room left in there while dancing.

Yeah, yeah...

... that old chestnut!!

[drathzel]

Originally Posted by Gadget

I dissagree: it might work. It depends on Drathzel's persuasiveness; and who am I to underestimate a woman's ways? I respect her for not only the thought of trying, but having the bottle to actually do it.
If the parting shot after dancing with said slease is (similar to) "If I see you doing something like this again, I will see that you are removed and banned from all classes in Scotland." :smile with sweetness: then it could work - depends on how nuch they believe her.



You won't put up with it and dance with me, but she might. Or her. Or her. Drathzel is trying to ensure that no other women have to put up with it - not an "I won't put up with this", but a "We won't put up with this."

Thank you for your comments, gadge and everyone else!

I started this forum to help all women, its not just about me and what i want. I may have got this guy completely wrong and i wanted to put out feelers. I did speak to Franck on Wednesday and pointed out one of the men that this thread started about! This way i can help other women not just myself when i try and stear this man away from this or help the man to become a better dancer by not sleazing and women then would want to dance with him!

(does any of the above make sence?)

[Piglet]

Hi there - cheers for this thread!

There's one guy that doesn't appear to know where my hip is and I feel partly to blame because I didn't pull him up for it during a class lesson (to be honest - I don't think he's aware that its not my hip!!! but maybe I'm just being very very naive??)

Thing is its not easy to point out his inappropriate move whilst dancing but I'm definitely going to tackle this issue sooner rather than later because it does make me feel uncomfortable and I know that at least one other woman feels the same because we were talking about him and his affliction one night during the line up waiting for our turn at the lesson. Think I'll aim to ask for advice from Lisa / Lorna with my concern first of all and see how things go from there...

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Gadget

If the parting shot after dancing with said slease is (similar to) "If I see you doing something like this again, I will see that you are removed and banned from all classes in Scotland." :smile with sweetness: then it could work - depends on how nuch they believe her.

Well, this is a whole lot different from what she said. Of course if she says something as clear as this it might work. Duhhh...

It's this that won't work:

Originally Posted by drathzel

i was hoping that by dancing with him but letting him know certain moves weren't appropiate it could help other ladies that dance with him!

The point is that if it's a real perv, subtlety does not work.

For years now, I've seen the same handful of guys around London doing the same things, with the girls still dancing with them, with the same uneasy, pained, grossed out etc, expression on their faces. They go for the pretty young beginners out of preference, and it's always the same.

With reference to the pervs I have direct knowledge of, the guy I'm thinking of in category A (predator, doesn't care) has been banned from several venues, and in those he hasn't been banned from, has modified his behaviour just enough to be around the borderline of acceptability AFAICT. The guy I'm thinking of in category B (justifies his actions on the grounds that other people dance sexy, so why shouldn't he), dropped very much out of the scene when he was confronted about his behaviour. He's reappeared at one of my normal venues so as a taxi I'm keeping my eyes peeled.

The real pervs unfortunately are pretty much immune to the sort of education that lovely ladies such as Danielle want to give them. As I say, mostly they either simply don't care, or justify their behaviour by saying that what they do is Ok, because they see other people doing it.

You are tring to assign motivation and purpose to another person's actions and come up with a reasonable (sane) explination that will allow you to define them as A or B.

I'm doing nothing of the sort. I'm describing two categories of perv that I've observed over years.

What about those that just creep you out? Nothing specific, just exude an 'oily' air.

I don't know. They may be pervs, they may not be. Are they doing anything offensive? If not, they may not be pervs. I can't pass judgement on someone who is doing nothing wrong. But if they creep you out, don't dance with them. You don't go to Ceroc to be creeped (crept?) out, or indeed to suppress your instincts about people.

What about those who take an opportunity to oggle the lady's assets?

Well, if they do it discreetly, I don't have a problem with that. That's not what I mean by perving. If a lady has assets on display, it's rude not to appreciate them. But it's pervy to appreciate them in an inappropriate way. And any bloke who doesn't have an instinctive understanding of where the line should be drawn (and of course the line won't always be in the same place with everyone), has to have a question mark at least against him.

What about thoughts of ....

I'm not talking about thoughts. I'd probably be locked up if anyone had access to my thoughts. But they are combined with respect, which IMHO is what makes the difference between "Ok" and "not Ok".

Once it gets as far as:

What about thoughts of "mmm - that was nice; and I didn't get any negative feedback.. I wonder what else I could get away with..."
or "look how close my hand is - if I just move it a bit... cor..."
or "'hand lower than hip level' - cool - just place your butt in my hand..."
or ...*

... then it's into the category of "attempting to do something that the lady does not want" - it's out of order IMHO, and acting out such thoughts would constitute perving in my book.

Drathzel is trying to ensure that no other women have to put up with it - not an "I won't put up with this", but a "We won't put up with this."

And a sweetie she is for wanting to do it.

What I'm saying is that for real pervs, education doesn't work - or I've seen no evidence of it working except after feedback that is completely unambiguous, and it doesn't turn them into lovely, sweet, considerate people. They either leave or change just enough to reduce the heat on them.

* I have a good imagination and read lots - just because I can imagine these thoughts does not mean they would spring to my mind when dancing; to be honest there's not that much room left in there while dancing.

I'm with CJ on this one.

Chris

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Piglet

There's one guy that doesn't appear to know where my hip is ...

hope it's not me; I have been known to use the waist by mistake.

Think I'll aim to ask for advice from Lisa / Lorna with my concern first of all and see how things go from there...

They are both on the forum; you can always PM them while it's fresh in your mind (look for them in the "members list" at the top of the forum pages)

Originally Posted by ChrisA

What I'm saying is that for real pervs, education doesn't work - or I've seen no evidence of it working except after feedback that is completely unambiguous, and it doesn't turn them into lovely, sweet, considerate people. They either leave or change just enough to reduce the heat on them.

Re-education and rehabilitation must work - or they do for other members of society that go against the social rules {ie theives, murderers, rapists,...} So just because you havn't seen it work, does not mean that with the proper approach and correct methology it won't work. They may even be let back into polite dancing society after rehabilitation.

I'm with CJ on this one.

Why? what does he say?

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by Gadget

Re-education and rehabilitation must work - or they do for other members of society that go against the social rules {ie theives, murderers, rapists,...} So just because you havn't seen it work, does not mean that with the proper approach and correct methology it won't work. They may even be let back into polite dancing society after rehabilitation.

For 'rehabilitation' read 'castration' - I'm pretty sure that works - worked on our cat

[MartinHarper]

I have been known to use the waist by mistake.

Ditto - not the most comfortable lead for the lady. One partner of mine also pointed out that, as she was quite ticklish, it was also not doing wonders for her dancing ability... oopsie.

[DianaS]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

.. and very occasionally they tell me I can put my hands where I like

They must feel really comfortable with you then!

[drathzel]

Originally Posted by DianaS

They must feel really comfortable with you then!

Lucky for some. the most annoying thing is when a guy leads you from the first move , with hand on your ass cheek!

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Gadget

Re-education and rehabilitation must work - or they do for other members of society that go against the social rules

Bless

[MartinHarper]

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