Inappropriate Touching

[Lory]

Originally Posted by Bangers & Mash

what alternative would you suggest.

I'm not sure this is going to be any help...probably not!

All I'd say is, If you don't feel confident that you've sussed your partner out well enough and you feel the need to 'ask' if she's OK with it, then it's probably not.

If we're talking about sexy moves, there's a definite difference between feeling sexy and sleazy.

Sexy, is a man who's confident and doing moves with conviction.

Obviously this can only be achieved if he's really sussed the ladies comfort zone out and feels confident.

Sleazy, is a man who's unsure and tries to pull a move off half heartedly or too tentatively, so my only advice is, don't try anything unless your absolutely sure it's going to be welcomed.

IMO there's nothing less sexy, than a man (or woman, for that matter) being calculated about being sexy!


Sorry, that really wasn't much help at all!

Wow, what a tricky topic!

[Lory]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

I can only suggest that teachers tell their ladies to give us more feedback during the dance. A lot of encouragng "yeses" would be good, with silence meaning one thing, and "no-no" meaning just that.

Feedback is great for everyone, girls, aswell as guys. It's one thing that can make the difference between a good dance and a great dance.

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Lory

Sexy, is a man who's confident and doing moves with conviction.
...
Sleazy, is a man who's unsure and tries to pull a move off half heartedly or too tentatively,

I think that Lory has hit the nail on the head: do anything with conviction and the beleif that you are in the right, then that air of confedence lends weight to the "sexy" factor (of course you have to be able to perform the move with accuracy as well.)
Any inaccuracy in the move or waver in the beleif of the execution, and it takes away from the "sexyness" of a move and heads towards 'arrogant', 'creepy' or 'sleasy'.

I think that the biggest 'tell-tail' is the reaction of the man to the reaction of a lady - this is where "sexy" and "sleasy" can be defined. Most of the "sexy" in this is from self-confidence and conviction. Panic, confusion, concentration and indifference are the normal responses {at least they are most of the time for me } - learing or eagerly awaiting a response from the lady is rapidly heading towards "slease"/"creep" terratory.

If I were a lady being questioned about moves and the dance after the event would set me thinking "what did he do that he thinks was sleasy?" and probably taint any future dances on the look out for these moves. (But then again, I'm not a lady - so this is just an unproven hypothisis.)

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Lory

Sexy, is a man who's confident and doing moves with conviction.
...
Sleazy, is a man who's unsure and tries to pull a move off half heartedly or too tentatively,

I think that Lory has hit the nail on the head: do anything with conviction and the beleif that you are in the right, then that air of confedence lends weight to the "sexy" factor (of course you have to be able to perform the move with accuracy as well.)
Any inaccuracy in the move or waver in the beleif of the execution, and it takes away from the "sexyness" of a move and heads towards 'arrogant', 'creepy' or 'sleasy'.

I think that the biggest 'tell-tail' is the reaction of the man to the reaction of a lady - this is where "sexy" and "sleasy" can be defined. Most of the "sexy" in this is from self-confidence and conviction. Panic, confusion, concentration and indifference are the normal responses {at least they are most of the time for me } - learing or eagerly awaiting a response from the lady is rapidly heading towards "slease"/"creep" terratory.

If I were a lady being questioned about moves and the dance after the event would set me thinking "what did he do that he thinks was sleasy?" and probably taint any future dances on the look out for these moves. (But then again, I'm not a lady - so this is just an unproven hypothisis.)

[Bangers & Mash]

Originally Posted by Gadget

If I were a lady being questioned about moves and the dance after the event would set me thinking "what did he do that he thinks was sleasy?" and probably taint any future dances on the look out for these moves. (But then again, I'm not a lady - so this is just an unproven hypothisis.)

okay - let me throw a spanner in.

I often hear girls complaining about certain moves being sleazy and not liking certain moves - but more often than not these girls say nothing, give no indication that there was a problem and so the guy continues on thinking nothing of it and certainly unaware that he has caused any discomfort.

where the girl lacks the confidence to say something then how does the guy ever know.

As a side, in another thread, I have received lots of PMs from some of the most unlikely (to me) girls asking them to bring back chocolate willies from amsterdam (some that I have never even seen post on the forum). These girls I know for a fact would not like any close or personal dancing - but yet they want a chocolate willie!!

What I am trying to say is there is no consistent answer for this, and some girls appear much more confident and relaxed than they actually are - some girls will only say something if they are invited to ask about it, some won't need any prompting at all, and some will say they enjoyed it all and give that impression whilst secretly hating it - and of course, there are those girls for whom a dance that others would describe as sleazy is completely within their comfort zone and who think nothing of it.

I will take on board what has been said here - but if I do a move with any of you girls and you don't like it - you'll have to tell me.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

When I think of someone with a very limited comfort zone, I think of someone who doesn't like to be touched at all, and I doubt that's what you mean. Perhaps you could give some examples of the kind of things that aren't appropriate until you've built up some rapport?

I wasn't meaning quite as limited as that. In terms of building a rapport, I think we should ignore absolute beginners, who are the only people who might fall into this category - for what I hope are obvious reasons you should not be doing anything you consider remotely "risky" with beginners.

On a very basic level, is your partner touching you as much as you are touching her? Moves like the octopus are a good way of assessing this. The kind of "starting-out" moves I was meaning were things like a comb - how does your partner react? Is she pushing away if you attempt a slow comb, or is she smiling at you? If you do something like a basket walkaround, does she look and feel as if she's enjoying it? Is she pressing herself against you? If she's a more experienced dancer, is she doing cheeky/sexy improvisations?

[Graham]

Originally Posted by Bangers & Mash

As a side, in another thread, I have received lots of PMs from some of the most unlikely (to me) girls asking them to bring back chocolate willies from amsterdam

Have you been advertising this as an import service? Nobody's ever asked me to bring back a chocolate willy from Amsterdam!

[Bangers & Mash]

Originally Posted by Graham

Have you been advertising this as an import service? Nobody's ever asked me to bring back a chocolate willy from Amsterdam!

it all started so innocently as a post in
PreXmas Edinburgh Special 23rd December and so quickly got moved upstairs to Hot Chocolate

personally, I blame all these dirty women



I always thought a rabbit was a fluffy little creature until last frday

[Daisy Chain]

Originally Posted by Lory

Agreed

if a man stands close behind and instigates a body roll, if it's in keeping with the music, that would be fine. If he then asked, was I comfortable with that, I'd think YUK! (the moment ruined) This is because I now know, in his mind, HE considers it seedy, enough to have to ask! And i'd then feel he was taking liberties!

Does anyone know what I mean

Yup, I'm with you on this one, know what you mean exactly. It's like men asking if they can kiss you. *cringe* Well Boys, DON'T ASK, JUST DO IT unless of course I don't want you to kiss me............ JUst try not to get it wrong as a slap may offend.

Daisy Chain

(A Difficult to Read Flower)

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally Posted by Lory

Agreed
If someone did a move on me, THEN posed the question, were you comfortable with that? The very fact they questioned me about it, would make me feel uncomfortable. weird but true! when I read that line, it actually made me cringe.

Dancing to me is meant to be totally instinctive and natural, I know it's hard for some to interpret but the answer is alway's in the body language.

I agree. I couldn't dance with someone on the basis that from time to time during the dance I would ask her if she was uncomfortable with particular moves or not. It would ruin the experience. If she's uncomfortable I will soon get to know about it through her body language, or maybe she will say so. Next thing you know, people will be handing out questionnaires after each dance asking their partners to rate them on style, presentation and technical ability (and getting them to sign to the effect that they have not been sexually harrassed). OK, I exaggerate, but you get the point...

[Sheepman]

Originally Posted by Lory

If someone did a move on me, THEN posed the question, were you comfortable with that? The very fact they questioned me about it, would make me feel uncomfortable. weird but true! when I read that line, it actually made me cringe. :

On first reading that I thought "I totally agree" then I realised it may not be that black and white.
It's been mentioned that confidence in the guy is part of what makes a move sexy, not sleazy. That confidence is also dependent on how well you know and trust a partner. With some partners I will dance extremely close, and if I am "in that zone" then this may affect the way I dance with subsequent partners whom I don't know well, or at all. So it could happen that I realise after the event that I've done something inapproriate for that partner, and I make a jokey (but sincere) apology in order to ease any embarrassment. (I can't recall this situation ever happening, but it does seem feasible.)

Originally Posted by Lory

E.g. if a man stands close behind and instigates a body roll, if it's in keeping with the music, that would be fine. If he then asked, was I comfortable with that, I'd think YUK! (the moment ruined) This is because I now know, in his mind, HE considers it seedy, enough to have to ask! And i'd then feel he was taking liberties!

A move I suppose I would only do with partner where she would appear to be happy with it, (even though there is no need for anything intimate to be happening.) But if I've done 3 in a row (driven by the music of course ), I might suggest, "do you think we should stop now?"

Greg

[Clive Long]

Hello all,

I'll add my bit here although it probably isn't very original among the wise words and wit already displayed

Comfort zone. To dance any partner dance effectively (leaving aside the aberation known as disco) involves some physical contact between partners (note how PC I am not writing man-woman). Without contact there can be no lead-follow and no partner dance.

I believe that any unwelcome and uninvited touch from a man to a woman is considered, and is, assault - maybe a little extreme but probably the better end of the spectrum. That may seem tough guys but that's the way it is.

So there must be contact, closer than acceptable in a "standard" social situation and there must also be consent. Being at a partner dance implies you accept there will some touching.

So the problem now is where is the boundary between acceptable and unacceptable? And the answer is of course, it depends. I feel it depends on whether you know your partner and your partner's attitude to touch / proximity in general. It also depends on whether he/she, in the modern parlance "fancies" you. And even if the other person does "fancy" you , going on a hand-guided tour of their body will be sure to dowse flickers of passion immediately. If you don't understand that you need therapy not Jive.

Another issue is sleazy versus sexy. Sleazy is intentional, unwelcome touching or positioning. Sexy is intentional welcome / accepted touching. I think it is entirely possible to be very close in a partner dance and for it to be SEXY but NOT sleazy. It comes down to what your partner feels (obvious really). Sorry I did say this wasn't very novel.

So what's the guy to do? Ask which areas of the lady and in which way can or cannot be touched before / during / after the dance? Of course not. Sounds all a bit sordid doesn't it? There has to be contact (unless you are ito Tantric Jive) ergo there will be touching. Guys, know your partner. Respond to them. They will let you know what is acceptable. If you don't sense this feedback then you aren't a good partner. Ladies, if you are uncomfortable with anything, stop dancing , don't make a scene, no-one else is interested in you and your partner, tell him quietly but firmly you are uncomfortable with what he did BUT give him a chance to carry on dancing and see if he "behaves" . If he doesn't behave, "disconnect". If he wants to be in the presence of women he will cotton on. It's Pavlovian training.

At Camber I have been to a couple of Mikey's Strictly Sinful classes. I think he pushes it and I have seen a FEW people walk out but his classes are always PACKED and everyone knows it is a partner exchange setup. Hence people will dance in a physically close way with people they have never met. So how does he get people to do things that would bring criminal charges in any other circumstances? Maybe

1. The style NOT unexpected, in other words people know what they are letting themselves in for and
2. He somehow makes it all into a great laugh.

I remember two particular Mikey dances at Camber. One was with a woman who I thought had descended from on high - nice open style and attracted lots of "attention". I would gladly have danced with her all weekend. Didn't happen. Never saw her again.

The other occassion was with a woman at Camber where somehow we reached an "unspoken understanding" that we would "go for it" in the routine. And the weird thing was, the sexiest part of the routine was (something like) taking her wrist in my hand, lifting it in an arc to above our heads than running her hand down the side of my chest. No "dangerous areas" were encroached upon, but what a "connection" !! Dance truly is a funny thing.

I am intrigued and definitely jealous of those guys who have been subject to unwelcome advances - especially the guy who mentioned a woman's nipples stood out when she danced with him ,then they receded again. That's never happened to me in any situation . My nipples or anyone elses.

Clive

[horsey_dude]

Originally Posted by Clive Long

I am intrigued and definitely jealous of those guys who have been subject to unwelcome advances - especially the guy who mentioned a woman's nipples stood out when she danced with him ,then they receded again. That's never happened to me in any situation . My nipples or anyone elses.

Clive

I am proud to be the subject of other mens jealousy! The flip side of such experiences was going to a new venue and dancing with one of the instructors and doing lots of cool and sexy dips and close moves (so I thought) and walking off the dance floor past two sour and frumpy looking women and hearing one say to the other "God, no way I am dancing with him" (or something similar said in a nasty way and directed at me).........

One of the earlier posts mentioned assesing your partners height etc before dancing with them and before christmas I did an accidental grope that was new even for me. The person in question is very short (5 foot or less and wears flat sneaker type shoes) she travels when she spins and occasionally moves forward instead of away.

I sent her off on a free spin anti clockwise with really paying attention and when she stepped in I reached forward and closed my hand the way I would when taking my partners and and got something else.....

I won't go into more detail what with this not being a take it upstairs thread...

HD.