Exciting new beginner moves!

[Stuart M]

The 'slow back pass' was taught last Tuesday at JJ's, Graham. I can't say my life script was enabled by it...

It included the change to the slow comb which was introduced a couple of weeks back - namely, using the hand on the lady's arm as the signal to continue/end the move. I didn't really have much opinion on that with the comb, other than it means another beginner's move involves hands staying above waist level longer.

However, I can't help but feel there's an issue with doing this in the back-pass. Am I alone in wondering whether a perv opportunity has been created here, where none existed previously? Consider - man has his back to the lady and has to put his hand somewhere near her elbow as he turns round? Erm, hellooo ?

[Graham]

Originally Posted by Stuart M

The 'slow back pass' was taught last Tuesday at JJ's, Graham. I can't say my life script was enabled by it...

It included the change to the slow comb which was introduced a couple of weeks back - namely, using the hand on the lady's arm as the signal to continue/end the move. I didn't really have much opinion on that with the comb, other than it means another beginner's move involves hands staying above waist level longer.

However, I can't help but feel there's an issue with doing this in the back-pass. Am I alone in wondering whether a perv opportunity has been created here, where none existed previously? Consider - man has his back to the lady and has to put his hand somewhere near her elbow as he turns round? Erm, hellooo ?

Yes, I'm aware of (and unimpressed by) the slow back pass and the new slow comb - what I wasn't aware of was a modification to the step-across, which someone hinted there had been.

[Stuart M]

Originally Posted by Graham

Yes, I'm aware of (and unimpressed by) the slow back pass and the new slow comb - what I wasn't aware of was a modification to the step-across, which someone hinted there had been.

Sorry Graham. I really should read things...likewise I've yet to see any changed step-across, should it exist. My breath isn't baited, however

[CJ]

Originally Posted by Stuart M

Am I alone in wondering whether a perv opportunity has been created here, where none existed previously? Consider - man has his back to the lady and has to put his hand somewhere near her elbow as he turns round? Erm, hellooo ?

Stuart:

ar$e
elbow
ar$e
elbow
they are NOT the same. Get over it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[drathzel]

Originally Posted by Stuart M

The 'slow back pass' was taught last Tuesday at JJ's, Graham. I can't say my life script was enabled by it...

It included the change to the slow comb which was introduced a couple of weeks back - namely, using the hand on the lady's arm as the signal to continue/end the move. I didn't really have much opinion on that with the comb, other than it means another beginner's move involves hands staying above waist level longer.

I have never seen this move done before although i am a relative beginner. I found this move extremely uncomfortable (i was dancing as a man) as did the ladies i was dancing with! I found it very dull and pointless! Lets ditch it and get some funkier, yet easy, moves in instead

[Graham]

Originally Posted by drathzel

I found this move extremely uncomfortable (i was dancing as a man) as did the ladies i was dancing with! I found it very dull and pointless! Lets ditch it and get some funkier, yet easy, moves in instead

Hear, hear.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by Stuart M

However, I can't help but feel there's an issue with doing this in the back-pass. Am I alone in wondering whether a perv opportunity has been created here, where none existed previously? Consider - man has his back to the lady and has to put his hand somewhere near her elbow as he turns round? Erm, hellooo ?

I shouldn't think you're alone, Stuart - I expect the other pervs thought of it too

[Stuart M]

Originally Posted by Ceroc Jock

Stuart:

Get over it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've been trying CJ, honestly I have. But after that dance in Perth, I've lost what little sense of reality I had...

[John S]

Originally Posted by drathzel

I found it very dull and pointless! Lets ditch it and get some funkier, yet easy, moves in instead

There does seem to be quite a bit of negative feeling (which I share) about some of the recent changes to the beginner syllabus. I don't think all of it is due to the "It's Not Ceroc As We Know It, Jim" type of thinking, but it's hard to assess how representative it is of feelings generally - maybe for a lot of Forum users it doesn't matter much because they've gone way past the beginner class stage and won't ever need to use the new moves?

It would be interesting though to find out views - I feel a poll coming on, so that Ceroc HQ could get some feedback (if they want it!). I'm not sure if I can remember all the changes (some of which I think are good) so before making up the poll, let me know what anyone wants to see included:
EG:
- Warm Up
- Slow Comb
- Slow Back Pass
- Shoulder Drop
- Any other changes?

[Franck]

Originally Posted by John S

It would be interesting though to find out views - I feel a poll coming on, so that Ceroc HQ could get some feedback (if they want it!). I'm not sure if I can remember all the changes (some of which I think are good) so before making up the poll, let me know what anyone wants to see included:
EG:
- Warm Up
- Slow Comb
- Slow Back Pass
- Shoulder Drop
- Any other changes?

I agree feedback from as many people as possible is exactly what we need.

For what it's worth, my view on the changes is that they are a good thing. First of all, none of the changes were made in isolation, and the balance of moves (right / left hand, spin / turns, footwork, etc...) was carefully considered.
One of the main changes you forgot to mention is that all the Beginners classes are now rotated over 12 weeks on a national basis, I believe this will have the most radical and profound impact overall especially when other features (web / DVD / etc...) come live!

Individual moves are being tested in a huge scale, at all the Ceroc classes and feedback is received from all concerned, but especially from the teachers and current Beginners.

Re. the Ceroc essentials Warm-up, I love the concept, though so far haven't introduced it to my classes. Many teachers are working on different variations as we speak, and the next Teachers' Conference will allow us to share best practise. In essence though, the idea of a simple 'warm-up' / get your feet moving and listen to the music early is brilliant.

As far as the individual moves are concerned, well, I like the new (hand on arm) Comb and sometimes do it in Freestyle. I can see the point behind it, and if teaching a Comb in the Intermediate class or at a workshop, I would introduce alternatives.
The Shoulder drop started off too hard, but was simplified, and I must admit to really liking it now. It really teaches the men to lead 'travelling' better and introduces more simple footwork.
The Backpass (like the previous 2) will take a bit of getting used to for existing dancers. Once I 'got' the move I started dancing it more, and I'll be watching over the next few weeks how my beginners cope with it before reporting to Ceroc HQ!

To sum up, I believe change was well overdue and why there have been some teething problems, the end result should make a huge difference.

[drathzel]

Originally Posted by John S

There does seem to be quite a bit of negative feeling (which I share) about some of the recent changes to the beginner syllabus. I don't think all of it is due to the "It's Not Ceroc As We Know It, Jim" type of thinking, but it's hard to assess how representative it is of feelings generally - maybe for a lot of Forum users it doesn't matter much because they've gone way past the beginner class stage and won't ever need to use the new moves?

It would be interesting though to find out views - I feel a poll coming on, so that Ceroc HQ could get some feedback (if they want it!). I'm not sure if I can remember all the changes (some of which I think are good) so before making up the poll, let me know what anyone wants to see included:
EG:
- Warm Up
- Slow Comb
- Slow Back Pass
- Shoulder Drop
- Any other changes?

I'm still a beginner but i feel that the "new" slow comb is a lot more intimidating and the "new" back pass is just bliming stupid! Sorry but as i have danced both male and female to these move i feel more intimadated by the i'm trying not to be pervy/perv on you, vibe that it gives and its not comfortable. One of the first 4 moves i learned was the slow comb and i didn't find it odd or uncomfortable at all!!

What is a warm up? (see still a beginner)

[Whitebeard]

Originally Posted by Franck

Re. the Ceroc essentials Warm-up, I love the concept .....

Whatever some of the more experienced may feel, I entirely agree that this is great for beginners, though I would see it having value introduced more as a 'Getting into the Groove' session. A good opportunity, too, to very simply get beginners used to the idea and feel of tension and compression. Improvers and the experienced can be really helpful in this line-up.

Originally Posted by Franck

I like the new (hand on arm) Comb .....

I've missed the 'hand on arm bit', but this move does introduce 'wiggles' which a lot of beginners (including me) have difficulty executing and co-ordinating. These are a very useful 'component' which can be inserted at many points during freestyle ..... but they do need to flow smoothly and naturally. I feel there is a good case for introducing a basic 'wiggle' as part of the 'Warm Up' (Getting into the Groove).

[tsh]

The warm-up seems pretty essential, to allow beginners to start thinking about moving in time to the music, standing close to a partner, and leading/following a step back. The in/out motion seems to be what most beginners I dance with lack - and that makes them harder to lead.

One drawback of the way the warm-up is taught is that most ladies now drag my arm wildly from side to side, lead the semi-circle, and carry on leading. I don't know if I'm more aware of it or if it's getting worse, but it's a bad place to start from. I think there needs to be more emphasis on explaining that follow means you need to wait for the lead to move first, then follow momentatily after...

Sean

[ToeTrampler]

Originally Posted by drathzel

What is a warm up? (see still a beginner)

Just think of the dance scene in "Antz" and you won't be too far off

[drathzel]

Originally Posted by ToeTrampler

Just think of the dance scene in "Antz" and you won't be too far off

Titter titter titter!!!

[drathzel]

Originally Posted by tsh

The warm-up seems pretty essential, to allow beginners to start thinking about moving in time to the music, standing close to a partner, and leading/following a step back. The in/out motion seems to be what most beginners I dance with lack - and that makes them harder to lead.

One drawback of the way the warm-up is taught is that most ladies now drag my arm wildly from side to side, lead the semi-circle, and carry on leading. I don't know if I'm more aware of it or if it's getting worse, but it's a bad place to start from. I think there needs to be more emphasis on explaining that follow means you need to wait for the lead to move first, then follow momentatily after...

Sean

I have to point out that although i have never done a "warm up" i still tend to lead the side to side and i help with the semi circle. I think no matter whether there is a warm up or not if its in the ladies nature to be in control then this is going to happen. Before i danced i was in control of everything and it was very foreign for me to be led or controlled. I think the side to side and semi circle helping is a way of saying, hey i am still here, i can read the beat as well as you and i have my own opinion! *also see hi-jacking!!

What do the ladies think?

[tsh]

I think the side to side and semi circle helping is a way of saying, hey i am still here, i can read the beat as well as you and i have my own opinion! *also see hi-jacking!!

[/quote]

I'll agree that it's nice to know that your partner is awake, and it helps to have some feedback on how she interprets the music. Equally, for beginners, being led here helps sometimes. Just leep it small, not as exagerated as the teacher might do, unless that suits the music!

The problem is that beginner ladies need to learn that they can't lead all the time. The 'rules' need to be explained better, as part of the class (rather than by me having to ask beginners if I can lead, and suggesting that intermediates should follow the lead if they can't get the move!)

Sean

[drathzel]

Originally Posted by tsh

I'll agree that it's nice to know that your partner is awake, and it helps to have some feedback on how she interprets the music. Equally, for beginners, being led here helps sometimes. Just leep it small, not as exagerated as the teacher might do, unless that suits the music!

The problem is that beginner ladies need to learn that they can't lead all the time. The 'rules' need to be explained better, as part of the class (rather than by me having to ask beginners if I can lead, and suggesting that intermediates should follow the lead if they can't get the move!)

Sean

I completely agree with you Sean, ladies do need to learn to follow and need to concentrate on following no matter what level they are at and should not anticipate move (but thats another thread altogether). However some men are so laid back or complete opposite, so rough that the lady does need to exert some control or neither will learn during a class!

What bugs me the most is when a guy just pushes you away (and not gently either) rather than a semi circle or some other kind of signal! This is why i think a lot of women also semi circle, it gets the guy used to signalling.

I do have to say that i am only taking this from my experience as a woman (as my very very short experience as dancing as a man)! I am very open to any comments/criticism.

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by drathzel

What bugs me the most is when a guy just pushes you away (and not gently either) rather than a semi circle or some other kind of signal! This is why i think a lot of women also semi circle, it gets the guy used to signalling.

I do have to say that i am only taking this from my experience as a woman (as my very very short experience as dancing as a man)! I am very open to any comments/criticism.

See To Draw or not to Draw the semi circle....

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by drathzel

This is why i think a lot of women also semi circle, it gets the guy used to signalling.

I'm not sure it does, though, although it may be a popular misunderstanding of how guys learn to lead. Beginner guys have a lot of stuff to think about in the early days, and what tends to happen is that they simply cannot process the instruction, decide what to do, and do it, quickly enough.

And when it's done to a count, it's even worse of course.

If you crank the guys arm round in a semi-circle for him, it doesn't get him used to anything (except being led), and it certainly doesn't make him able to process information any quicker. In fact he's probably just about to do it (maybe a bit behind the teacher), and when you do it for him, it interrupts the thought/action process in his mind, and actually has the opposite effect on his learning.

As an example, I taught an improvers class last night, to a bunch of people who had been learning for about 5 weeks. Now the idea of the improvers classes isn't to teach moves as much as how to link them together, so we don't necessarily step through the moves in detail...

... and it was interesting to watch the way the time it took (a couple of seconds) for a couple of the guys to work out that a return is anticlockwise for the lady, and then lead it, was more than enough to make it completely impossible to dance the three moves we'd built up, in any kind of a rhythm.

And then when one of the ladies, also quite a new beginner, decided that she'd take control and turn the wrong way, the result was chaos. Needless to say, we backtracked a bit and reviewed the return part of the move .

Now arguably it was a bit early for a few of these people to have moved up to the improvers, but the lesson is clear:

- guys take a while before they can think and then do stuff quickly enough for even a slow count, and

- girls make it harder by leading the guys.

If you want to help your guy, tell him which way he should be doing it, and then let him lead it. Leading him sets up the wrong process in his mind, and IMHO make things worse.

Chris

PS, and just for the record, if a girl cranks my arm round in a semicircle for me during the class, it doesn't make it any more likely that I'll be gagging for a dance with her later

Interestingly enough, it's just as bad in intermediate classes as it is in the beginners - the habit is formed by then, obviously