Exciting new beginner moves!

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

... the lesson is clear:
- guys take a while before they can think and then do stuff quickly enough...

Just true in dancing....?

Originally Posted by ChrisA

If you want to help your guy, tell him which way he should be doing it, and then let him lead it.

...a bit like life in general...?

On a more serious note, great advice Chris!

[Graham]

It's taken me a while to get round to putting together my thoughts on this. In my opinion, the most important requirements of the beginner moves should be as follows:

• They should be reasonably simple to teach and to learn
• They should be easy to lead
• They should not be too open to mistakes which cause either pain or inappropriate contact
• They should collectively incorporate a good set of building blocks for learning more complicated moves later

In the past year, the adjustments have included the removal of the half-windmill and the wurlitzer, and the addition of the armjive-swizzle, the shoulder-drop, the modified slow comb, and the modified slow back-pass, plus the replacement of the ladyspin by the cerocspin.

Half-windmill I think removing this move was a good idea. It was difficult to lead, and whilst it had the benefit of making followers realise that not every move behind the man's back was a catapult, this was outweighed by the risk of causing pain, and can easily be introduced in the intermediate class anyway. Verdict: good change

Wurlitzer I think it's a shame this has been removed, as it was useful to be able to point out that a flat had didn't always mean a spin, and it was also useful to introduce the concept of a flick-spin. On the other hand, it was also hard to lead, and I kind of agree that it's more of an intermediate move than a beginner move. Verdict: neutral change

Armjive-swizzle I think this is a fairly difficult move to teach - most beginner followers have a great deal of difficulty understanding what they have to do, or actually performing it once they do. I'm not convinced that a swizzle is such an important building block that it needs to be included in the set, and I think most followers feel uncomfortable doing it. Verdict: slightly bad change

Shoulder-drop This is fairly challenging for both leader and follower, because it involves leading behind your back. On the other hand, this is a pretty useful building block, and it's fairly easy to teach and learn. Verdict: slightly good change

Slow comb In my opinion the new version is harder to lead than the old version. I heard that the reason for changing it was to remove a possibility of inappropriate contact, but conversely avoiding it removes the opportunity to teach people about what this type of contact should be like. Personally I would never choose to do the new version in freestyle, whereas I do use the old version, so I do find it a little awkward given that as a taxi dancer I'm supposed to be a paragon of correct technique. I also need to remember in classes to do the new version instead of what I would normally do! Verdict: slightly bad change

Slow back-pass Okay, this one really has no redeeming features whatever in my opinion. It is extremely difficult to lead: you start the follower moving, and then you have to stop her before she charges off into the distance. Because the critical point is when your arm is in a nelson position, and you don't have any eye-contact, it's very easy to lose contact with your partner at this stage. To avoid this you either need to use your left hand very early on the lady's arm, or grip on with your right hand. Either of these could cause discomfort for the follower, and the nelson hold could also cause pain for the leader. Furthermore, your left hand is groping for your partner's arm in the general vicinity of her chest. The only useful building block is putting yourself into a nelson position, but I don't think this is the easiest move which incorporates that, nor do I think it's an essential building block anyway. Verdict: very bad change

Cerocspin An easier move to teach and to lead than the ladyspin, and a more useful spin technique to learn as a building block. Verdict: very good change

Are there any other changes I've forgotten about, or any other opinions on the above?

[Yogi_Bear]

Is there a description anywhere of what these new or modified moves actually consist of? Or at least how they vary from the previous versions. I am especially intrigued by the notion of a 'Cerocspin'.
yb

[DavidB]

Originally Posted by Yogi_Bear

I am especially intrigued by the notion of a 'Cerocspin'.

That is when the lady spins in a Trademarked way.

[Yogi_Bear]

Are these moves in fact exciting? Can anyone come up with (as mentioned in a previous post in this thread) any exciting, funky - but easy to learn - new beginner moves?
This reminds me of a recent Camber workshop where we were invited to devise intresting variations of MJ beginner moves...and demo them on stage.

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally Posted by DavidB

That is when the lady spins in a Trademarked way.

Of course - I should have guessed!

[Whitebeard]

Originally Posted by Yogi Bear

Is there a description anywhere of what these new or modified moves actually consist of?

There are shorthand descriptions of the new set of beginner moves at:

http://www.cerockidderminster.co.uk/...ners_moves.tpl

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

There are shorthand descriptions of the new set of beginner moves at:

http://www.cerockidderminster.co.uk/...ners_moves.tpl

Thanks - I had a quick look, that seems like a useful site. So the 'Cerocspin" is still what used to be called a 'lady spin', but the leader usews two hands to spin the follower with rather than one.....sounds a bit easier for beginners to learn. But I'm still looking for funky and stylish new beginner moves....!

[DavidY]

Originally Posted by Graham

~Lots of sensible comments snipped~

I agree with most of this. I'd also add the following:

Armjive-swizzle On balance I do like this one - for instance it makes teapot moves more accessible with beginners and it's not too bad to lead (although a bit tricky with new beginners). I would go for "slightly good"

Shoulder-drop I also like this - as I said somewhere else, IMO it's also good for basic musical interpretation as you can do an easy "stop" when you latch your hand to your shoulder.

Slow back-pass I find this really hard to lead. Unless someone knows the move, I find it really hard to stop a follower circling clockwise round me. I'm sure I could work hard and get it right, and also that it will become familiar to followers, but that still won't help beginners who've never seen it before.

I used to like the "old" backpass (which was another new move which only lasted for a few months earlier this year). It was a very simple, easy to lead move (I assume it was too simple and so it got dropped & replaced). You can lead the old backpass on a complete beginner who's never even seen it in a lesson and they can usually follow it. The same is definitely not true of the new one.

Originally Posted by Graham

Are there any other changes I've forgotten about, or any other opinions on the above?

The extra turn in the Arm jive - I quite like this although it's slightly harder to lead than the old one (ie if you don't concentrate and therefore miss your partner's elbow as she zooms past off to the right)

Also
* Having standardised routines - was never sure of the point of this and still not convinced it's a forward step
* Not demoing all four moves at the start of the lesson. This seems to vary in its application - I have seen it applied to both beginners and intermediate lessons - think this is a slightly bad change as I always thought it was useful to see what's in store before you start.
* Warm-up/ Ceroc essentials. I heard somewhere that the point of these was to get people used to shifting their weight and stepping back - in principle a good idea, but if this is true I'm not sure people pick this up. Most people see it as just a "warm-up" I believe.

[Whitebeard]

Originally Posted by Graham

Are there any other changes I've forgotten about, or any other opinions on the above?

From my perspective as a beginner, but trying to advance, I would have difficulty attempting to improve upon your list of basic requirements for beginner moves. However I don't see quite eye to eye with you about some of the individual moves and the verdict you give for each.

Wurlitzer: I'm very sorry to see this go as it involved a very useful anti-clockwise spin (not keen on the various pushspins) in counterpoint to the clockwise spin of the lady/Ceroc spin and, I would have thought, easier to learn and get right than the catapult (also less demanding as regards floor-craft). Problem now is, has this beginner I'm now dancing with been coming long enough to know the move? Also, in my experience, it is not going to be taught in the intermediate class and even if I'm eventually proved wrong it will only at very long intervals. Verdict: bad change.

Armjive Swizzle: this is only one variation on what I always thought of as a pretty naff move. I feel the swizzle adds a more intruiging element although it may be a little more difficult to learn. I can see its value as a building block and, since both partners can arch their backs as they come face to face, I see it as less 'uncomfortable making' than the comb (unless it is the hammerlock that was in your mind - one lady with an injury specifically asked me not to put her in this position during class). There's also the opportunity to start making statements by pausing or playing with the timing. Verdict: quite a good change.

Slo Comb: (to adopt Cerocspeak) largely agree here but to me the real change is the introduction of 'wiggles' which few beginners can do with conviction or any sort of style. I don't do this move, but if I did it would be with both hands at the lady's waist to give a better chance of those wiggles co-ordinating. If the wiggles were taught in more detail they would be a useful building block and an encouragement to improvise. Verdict: not for me.

Slo back pass: the only comment I have is that to my recollection this hasn't been taught with the arm going into the hammerlock position. With the hands in a lower position the scope for embarrassing encounters is perhaps even greater. Agree with your verdict.

Ceroc spin: can't see that this is any easier to learn or execute, but it's useful as a variation (and, boy, do I need those!). For the lady both would seem to be unambiguous leads. Verdict: a useful addition.

The new Yo-yo: one you overlooked. I approve of this as it gives more for the man to do and provides the opportunity for some self expression as well as being a swap ends move with more travel. Verdict: a positive change.

Side to side shoulders: not sure whether this is new, but it gives plenty of scope for self expression, engagement with your partner and the development of individual style, as well as introducing the travelling return.

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by Yogi_Bear

Thanks - I had a quick look, that seems like a useful site. So the 'Cerocspin" is still what used to be called a 'lady spin', but the leader usews two hands to spin the follower with rather than one.....sounds a bit easier for beginners to learn. But I'm still looking for funky and stylish new beginner moves....!

Add to the list - "A funky and stylish smile."

[Whitebeard]

Originally Posted by Yogi Bear

But I'm still looking for funky and stylish new beginner moves....!

I think the originater of the thread had his/her tongue in his/her cheek.

If you find anything please let me know. Gotta be very easy mind you.

[Trish]

I mainly agree with Whitebeard on this. The half windmill is no loss - difficult for beginners, although I miss the wurlitzer, which is one of my favourite moves (both to lead and to follow). I tend to just teach it to ladies who don't know it once they feel like they're comfortable adding to their repertoire. I think my favourite addition is the shoulder drop, although as a taxi it was a bit strange to be in a situation where I didn't know any more than the beginners, having never done that move before! Might have been nice if they'd run through these things with us first really!

I do think it's a shame that they don't seem to teach these moves in the intermediate class though, I've only seen a wurlitzer taught once, and haven't seen the full windmill taught for years!

The other one that was missed from the list is the in and out - which in my opinion is boring and a complete waste of time. If anyone can tell me what the point of it is I'd be happy to be enlightened however!

[tsh]

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

Wurlitzer: I'm very sorry to see this go as it involved a very useful anti-clockwise spin (not keen on the various pushspins) in counterpoint to the clockwise spin of the lady/Ceroc spin and, I would have thought, easier to learn and get right than the catapult (also less demanding as regards floor-craft). Problem now is, has this beginner I'm now dancing with been coming long enough to know the move? Also, in my experience, it is not going to be taught in the intermediate class and even if I'm eventually proved wrong it will only at very long intervals. Verdict: bad change.

In my experience, this is a move which can be led without the beginner lady having been taught it. I've also learnt about 5 variations in the past couple of months, so it doesn't seem to have been dropped from the intermediate classes.

Sean

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by Trish

...The other one that was missed from the list is the in and out - which in my opinion is boring and a complete waste of time. If anyone can tell me what the point of it is I'd be happy to be enlightened however!

It is a great way for forcing eye contact for ladies who are dancing in their own world.

[Whitebeard]

Originally Posted by Trish

The other one that was missed from the list is the in and out - which in my opinion is boring and a complete waste of time. If anyone can tell me what the point of it is I'd be happy to be enlightened however!

I overlooked this, which probably says a lot about its impact. At a local venue it forms part of the so-called warm up session where it does have value for real novices in learning to keep time and getting used to tension/compression (and you quickly identify unresponsive and overforceful ladies). T'other way round as well of course.

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

I overlooked this, which probably says a lot about its impact. At a local venue it forms part of the so-called warm up session where it does have value for real novices in learning to keep time and getting used to tension/compression (and you quickly identify unresponsive and overforceful ladies). T'other way round as well of course.

Agree, and if I'm understanding this move correctly it's a very useful filler type move for the guys to do if they are having trouble thinking what to do next, or for a more experienced dancer waiting for the right moment to lead a particular move.
Having been taught the shoulder drop, it seems to me like a useful additin to the beginner moves repertoire, particularly if it is going to replace some of the tedious and 'pointless' ones. I have to agree about the half windmill. Quite difficult to execute correctly and easily confused with the catapault. Now idf only there were some really cool new moves......

[spindr]

Originally Posted by tsh

In my experience, this is a move which can be led without the beginner lady having been taught it. I've also learnt about 5 variations in the past couple of months, so it doesn't seem to have been dropped from the intermediate classes.

Sean

Well, it's certainly easy to lead.

The problem for beginner followers is that they have to know not to "break the shoulder" -- I don't think there are any other beginners' moves that would teach this?

SpinDr.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by spindr

Well, it's certainly easy to lead.

The problem for beginner followers is that they have to know not to "break the shoulder"

Not if the lead comes mainly from the guy's right hand they don't. All that pushing flat handed from the left is what causes their overrotation, and it isn't necessary.

Chris

[Whitebeard]

Originally Posted by spindr

..... they have to know not to "break the shoulder"

Another technical term not known to me. I guess it means there needs to be a degree of tension/rigidity in the arm/shoulder to sense the leaders intention. As I progress, I'm beginning to find that the palm to palm is little more than a signal, the meerest hint, and I'm sure I've seen experienced dancers dispense with it altogether in freestyle. However, that hint from the left hand means that right hand lead can be that much more gentle and progressive.