In at the deep end?

[bigdjiver]

I attended a very busy fun night, which draws in many superb dancers from long distance. There are no quiet corners on the dancefloor, and there is non-dancing traffic all round.

I asked one lady to dance, and it transpired that she had only ever attended a workshop, not a class, and as a consequence had very little idea of floorcraft. I found the experience on the edge of scary. In four dances with her I had a minor collision with her foot, whilst avoiding traffic, and she had a minor collision with an over enthusiastic dancer.

I asked another lady, and it transpired that she had only attended one lesson. I moved on to her friend and she had never attended any. One more very minor bump from four dances with those two. They all seemed to be, and said they were, enjoying themselves immensely.

I am torn between the notion that there should not be beginners mingled in with such a busy crowd, and the notion that they should not be left sitting out whilst the more experienced dance with each other.

Comments?

[Dance Demon]

Always a difficult one BDJ...but I don't think we could ever exclude beginers from any of these nights. If you are forearmed with the knowledge that you are dancing with a novice, and you are an experienced dancer, then it would be up to you to control how the dance went i.e. shape and size of the dance. i would think most experienced guys look out for spaces to move into or for likely areas where there might be collision, and guide your partner accordingly. It's by dancing with more experienced dancers that beginners learn a lot of their floorcraft. Having said that, there are people who have been dancing for years that still dance with a total disregard for others on the floor. It's an unfortunate fact, and probably something that will never be totally eradicated.

[MartinHarper]

she had only ever attended a workshop, not a class, and as a consequence had very little idea of floorcraft

Your classes teach floorcraft? Kudos to your teachers - they must have done a good job if you can guide a first time dancer in two dances on a crowded floor with only a single bump. Locally, I get the impression that most floorcraft is learnt in freestyles, by trial and collision.

Personally, I don't find the low floorcraft abilities of beginner women to be a severe hindrance. After all, as a lead, it's largely my responsibility: the help I get from more experienced women is very welcome, but not essential. Rather, I find the challenge derives from the difficulty in leading beginner women. For example, not being able to limit the size of my partner's backstep, or not being able to lead her to spin on the spot. "scary" is an accurate word, though I am never sure if I am more scared of physical injury or of being perceived as a careless dancer...

When I have difficulty in this way, I am always grateful that the better dancers recognise that I have this extra challenge, and provide me with a little extra space, if they can, just as they did when I was a beginner myself. Beginners rarely spend as much time dancing as more experienced dancers, so it is not wildly unreasonable if they use more space when they do.

If the event was in the "real world", I would be considerably more cautious - to the extent of turning down dances. While I feel fairly comfortable imposing on folks who were once beginners themselves, I feel less comfortable imposing on non-dancers. People standing in a circle doing the nightclub shuffle shouldn't have to put up with incoming missiles...

[Magic Hans]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

I attended a very busy fun night, which draws in many superb dancers from long distance. There are no quiet corners on the dancefloor, and there is non-dancing traffic all round.

I asked one lady to dance, and it transpired that she had only ever attended a workshop, not a class, and as a consequence had very little idea of floorcraft. I found the experience on the edge of scary. In four dances with her I had a minor collision with her foot, whilst avoiding traffic, and she had a minor collision with an over enthusiastic dancer.

I asked another lady, and it transpired that she had only attended one lesson. I moved on to her friend and she had never attended any. One more very minor bump from four dances with those two. They all seemed to be, and said they were, enjoying themselves immensely.

I am torn between the notion that there should not be beginners mingled in with such a busy crowd, and the notion that they should not be left sitting out whilst the more experienced dance with each other.

Comments?

Nice post, and as DD said ... not an easy one.

As a taxi at Marcus Garvey, which can be very busy, I feel that it's safety first for the newcomers. I do ask ladies to stay a little closer ... to step back a little less, and importantly, to retain their own balance ... not relying on me [except for moves requiring a little lean such as catapult]. And, more to the point, it is they that will get hurt, 90+% of the time. It's a responsibility thing.

I'd be a fool, as a follow, to place masses of trust in a lead that I've never met before. Even as a taxi, I try not to take full responsibility for my follow.

I try to point out that many leads simply don't look out for their follows, and that teachers will tend to take large steps: a) because they generally have an entire stage, and b) in order that those at the back can still see something.

Personally, I'd be very, very wary at taking a newcomer out onto a packed dance floor. I don't really like dancing with anyone (no matter how experienced) on a busy dance floor, and simply wouldn't take someone who I knew to be new out.

In my experience, newcomers are often hooked by the friendly atmosphere, it would be a real shame were someone to get hurt, thus putting them off getting more fully involved.

In Australia, I found some of the more aware leads actually fended off other couples, in order to avoid collision or near miss.

Ian

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Your classes teach floorcraft? Kudos to your teachers - they must have done a good job if you can guide a first time dancer in two dances on a crowded floor with only a single bump. Locally, I get the impression that most floorcraft is learnt in freestyles, by trial and collision.

Like you say, floorcraft is something that has to be mostly learned. Our teachers prepare for it, by frequently demonstrating the right tension, and the right separation, but I think by doing that they have done all they can. You cannot teach looking six different ways at once, and predicting what the surrounding couples are going to do next.

... I find the challenge derives from the difficulty in leading beginner women. For example, not being able to limit the size of my partner's backstep, or not being able to lead her to spin on the spot. "scary" is an accurate word, though I am never sure if I am more scared of physical injury or of being perceived as a careless dancer...

I kept trying to aim the backstep into plenty of space. I am not scared of personal injury, I have accepted that is the price I might have to pay for all of my pleasure on the dancefloor. I just do my best to keep the pleasure to pain ratio as near infinity as possible. I do worry about damaging others, but I am by nature a risk taker, and seek out similar partners. I try to adopt a calmer style for the more conservative.

If the event was in the "real world", I would be considerably more cautious - to the extent of turning down dances. While I feel fairly comfortable imposing on folks who were once beginners themselves, I feel less comfortable imposing on non-dancers.

I hope I was not "imposing". The body language I perceived was that they wanted to be dancing, and were glad that they had the chance.

[Northants Girly]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

I hope I was not "imposing". The body language I perceived was that they wanted to be dancing, and were glad that they had the chance.

When I was a beginner I used to find freestyles abit nerve wracking and I always appreciated it when you asked me to dance BigD I'm sure all your partners had good dances with you on Friday

[spindr]

When I end up dancing with what I would term "absolute beginners" -- I tend to stick to double-handed moves -- there's much less scope for them being able to "escape" and "wander" across the floor. Manhattan's are great -- to be honest it would be a good move to add to the Ceroc beginners' move list.

I have to restrain myself from my favourite wurlitzer-like moves: as my experience is that they'll usually "break the shoulder" -- and avoid my other favourite comb moves: as they'll usually try to do some sort of turn.

I think it's a little unfair to expect absolute beginners to have a full appreciation of the subtleties of floor craft.

SpinDr.

P.S. Here's a few more floor craft ideas.

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by spindr

When I end up dancing with what I would term "absolute beginners" -- I tend to stick to double-handed moves -- there's much less scope for them being able to "escape" and "wander" across the floor.

Me too. I do basket and other walk-arounds, which, though not official beginner moves, also have the advantage of making it easier to chat.

Manhattan's are great -- to be honest it would be a good move to add to the Ceroc beginners' move list.

A beginners class move? but. with my large feet, so far away from my brain, I would not try a Manhattan with a raw beginner until then.

...I think it's a little unfair to expect absolute beginners to have a full appreciation of the subtleties of floor craft.

I have seen some so enthusiastic that they seem to have no survival instinct at all. In many cases the raw beginner is completely overwhelmed, and I try to limit her options as much as possible, and be ready for anything from her.

[MartinHarper]

Over in Lindy, where I'm an absolute beginner, I've been tending to do large chunks of dances (heck, sometimes entire dances) in "closed position" - it uses less space, and you've got greater control, so it's great for being able to dance while not imposing on the surrounding gods.

It's a shame that MJ doesn't seem to have much of an equivalent - or does it?

[Gadget]

"Floorcraft" to me is being aware of the space arround you and being able to use it.

In crowded venues (or tight areas of the dance floor) the whole 'style' of dancing has to change to accept the fact that any moves have to be done smaller, closer and with less flamboyance. This requires a lot of control - best managed with double handed moves, but a broader description would be with two hands on the lady. If it's an experianced lady, then the moves can be more adventurous, but the controll remains the same no matter what the level of your partner.

Moves have to be timed to move into opening spaces, neighbours have to be kept an eye on for flailing elbows and feet, and limbs kept inside at all times. Variations on baskets, combs, close first moves, barriers, on the spot spins, and a few more 'bluesy' type moves should mean that you could dance without leaving the space that you and your partner occupy at the start of the dance. A few slides, walks and projectile spins {} can take advantage of openings and move into them.

Floorcraft is prodominantly the lead's domain: he is telling the lady where to go and what to do to get there -placing her (or any surrounding dancer) in harms way should be avoided. If a lady I am dancing with gets bumped, I feel guilty because I could have - (and should have) - prevented it.

You can modify your dancing for defensive dancing; planting your feet for certain moves, sliding feet rather than stepping, blocking space with arms, sheilding with your body, controlling the lady... but it takes a lot of work, a lot of observation, is more tireing than "normal dancing", does not allow for much style or MI, and is not as much fun. (I used to have to dance like this at my old venue regularly - 'combat dancing' is one of the reasons why it's now my 'old' venue)

Personally, I will take anyone on the dance floor regardless of the ability of the dancer or the number of people on the floor because I am confident that I can avoid situations that may lead to me or my partner injuring someone else and confident that I could lead my partner to avoid most other dancers mistakes around us. If my partner's style becomes flamboyant enough to pose a threat, I will try to reign them in a bit.

I know that by getting onto a packed floor, I am contributing to the over-crowding: not helping anyone else with their space and possably creating another hazard to the dancers on the floor already. Tough. I love to dance. My partner could have refused to dance in such a crowd (I would have found another). People who complain about such a floor and have no respect for other dancers on it should learn quickly or get off it. If I can dance without interfearing with their dance, then they should be able to dance without threatening mine.