New version of "Slow Comb"

[Gadget]

<rant>Have we suddenly had an influx of "perv" beginners? Have the actions of a few now dictated draconian measures to prevent anyone ever doing the same thing?

Explanation: Last night one of the beginner moves was billed as the "slow comb". -

R-L hand hold. Turn the lady as per a return. When she comes to face, draw the raised hand over your head and loosely hold the lady's hand on your right shoulder with the elbow tucked in and pointing to the ground. Man may have to extend a leg and bend the other knee to lower himself so that the body remains upright and you don't duck to get the hand over.
The left hand is the control hand that you use to indicate when the lady should step back.
For a 'short comb', the hand is placed on the lady's right hip bone with fingers to the side, then gently pushed away to catch L-L. (The right hand releases)

The way I have seen the 'slow comb' taught before is that the man's left hand goes round the lady so fingertips rest against spine - this pulls the lady in quite close and means that the lady does not pull away immediately as can happen for the 'short comb'. To indicate a release, the hand comes round to the 'short comb' position and gives a gentle push.

Variation: instead of placing the hand on the hip or round the back, it should be placed on the lady's left arm "between her wrist and elbow" (For those of you waggling arms at home, place both your hands behind your neck/on shoulders with elbows down.) Use this hand to push away and slide to catch L to L.

eugh. It's a slow comb. Intended to introduce a bit of the 'sexy' blues feel to a dance. You try doing a close sexy walk with both hands glued to your shoulders! Ugly, ungainly and unrequired. If there is concern about men taking advantage of the close proximity involved in the move, then (as Lorna and Lisa have done in the past) the move should be taught with the lady's left hand on the man's right shoulder and a simple push from her ends the move.

</rant>

[MartinHarper]

instead of placing the hand on the hip or round the back, it should be placed on the lady's left arm "between her wrist and elbow"

I think you mean the lady's right arm?

Otherwise, I'd have to see it to comment.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Gadget

eugh. It's a slow comb.

.....

I've always thought the slow comb - any version - is completely pants as a beginners move.

It's bad enough getting a roomful of self-conscious beginners to get through the moves at all, without picking one where they're supposed to act sexy too.

And of course, since the move is taught slowly, they end up in each others' faces for ages - far longer than the few counts you might actually stay there if you were to do it in freestyle.

It's not a recipe for relaxed learning for beginners, IMHO.

Chris

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

.....

I've always thought the slow comb - any version - is completely pants as a beginners move...

Oddly, I only ever do a slow comb with beginners and only with those with whom I have a rapport, who are complaining about too much spinning or exertion, just to show that there is a "time out" move that can be chatted to.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

Oddly, I only ever do a slow comb with beginners and only with those with whom I have a rapport, who are complaining about too much spinning or exertion, just to show that there is a "time out" move that can be chatted to.

Sure. Perfectly sound idea.

It's the teaching of it in beginners classes that tends to be a bit cringeworthy.

Chris

[ToeTrampler]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

I've always thought the slow comb - any version - is completely pants as a beginners move.

It's bad enough getting a roomful of self-conscious beginners to get through the moves at all, without picking one where they're supposed to act sexy too.

And of course, since the move is taught slowly, they end up in each others' faces for ages - far longer than the few counts you might actually stay there if you were to do it in freestyle.

It's not a recipe for relaxed learning for beginners, IMHO.

Chris

Completely agree.
Also, as a beginner, the combs can be difficult to get in the correct position for (ladies traveling on the turns or atticipating the step back after a return). IMHO there are far too many 'don'ts' associated with these combs for them to be in the beginners section. Also during this transition it is very easy to forget and start your hand heading towards the ladies waste/hip. Now if a newer beginner hasn't seen the old version, is this just not going to make them even more uncomfortable as they wonder what you are up to?
In general since beginning Ceroc I've been impressed by the way the beginner moves are made interesting enough to enjoy and provide a good basic variety to dance with but at the same time straight forward enough pick up after a few goes. However, as far as the combs go I think Ceroc have dropped the ball.

[Gadget]

{warning: long post }

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

I think you mean the lady's right arm?

as anyone who has ever partnered me during a class will testify, the terms "right" and "left" are confusing for me.

Originally Posted by ToeTrampler

Also, as a beginner, the combs can be difficult to get in the correct position for. IMHO there are far too many 'don'ts' associated with these combs for them to be in the beginners section.

I think that this is one of the primary reasons it is included: every beginner move teaches one (or more) core concepts and movements that the rest of your dancing is based on. If you can master the 'basics moves', then any other move just contains elements of these and what you are learning from then on is how to put them together in relation to the music. If an 'intermediate' move is difficult or challenging, then one of the main factors may be that your skill in leading(/following) the underlying basic move it draws from is not good enough.

What {I think} needs to be right for a comb:

• On the turn, the man steps in when the lady's back is to him; not stepping in leads to stretching and leaning (for both/either) and being too far away from your partner for the move to work. If you step in too soon, you risk an elbow in the face. If you step in too late, you will rush the next bit and may pull the lady into you.
  
  
• See your partner's face before drawing hand over your head; if you start too soon, your elbow will have a tendency to point forward in just the right height to hit the lady in the face. If you try to rush it, you are pulling your partner off-balance in the middle of a turn. You have so many different options to explore from this position - comb yourself, the lady, almost comb, turn yourself, a second turn for the lady, stay and let the lady improvise, swap hands, throw the hand...If you rush it, you will have missed an opportunity to surprise and impress your partner.
  
  
• Place your left hand on lady's right hip; that's the bit on the side of the lady, just below the waist band of her skirt/trousers (if they are wearing a dress, you have to guess it!). Too high and you try to block the lady's waist - this has no bone underneath and can be painful. The fleshy bit of your hand should be on the hip bone with fingers resting gently on the side of the hip. Too far round and you can't lead with it. Way too far round and you are in danger of being labelled a 'slease'.
  To do the next bit perfectly, it will continue the hand motion of the lady's turn slightly - of your hand is not there to act as a block, the lady will turn half-side-on to you {if she is following perfectly }
  
  
• Ladies place your left hand on the inside of the man's left shoulder; this is your control to break free if you get uncomfortable with the man's proximity, hand position or halitosis. Don't lean in - if anything, the hips should be forward and the torso slightly back.
  
  
• Draw the lady's hand over your head; If you try to pull the lady's arm round your neck it will cause an undignified 'elbow waggle', it will stumble your partner towards you.
  As you do this, halve the gap between you, using the left hand to keep the lady parallel with you.
  
  
• The lady's hand/fingers should be on your right shoulder; well, the gap between your neck and shoulder. If it doesn't want to reach, you are probably too far away. See the next two points...
  
  
• The right elbow should point to the floor; no-one wants to experience your sweaty oxters. It also looks uncoordinated and awkward if you have elbows everywhere - and they can be a hazard to the lady's head. This is only difficult if you insist on holding on to your partner's hand or are struggling to get her hand behind your neck; light grip, down to fingertips will give an additional four inches to play with {}
  
  
• Differences in height can be reduced by extending one leg and bending the other knee while taking the lady's hand over your head; bending at the waist and sticking your bum out is not attractive. Try to keep as upright as possible. Bending both knees prevents the lady from getting close enough. The bent knee should be between the lady's legs. The straight leg can be out to the side, behind or in - {My preference is infront because I can use it to adjust the space between us; the drawback is that you have to time it right and make sure the lady is not travelling at the time you stick it out.}
  This drop of levels should be no more than to take you down eye to eye (although this is a bit intimidating, eye to top of head works well.)
  Once the hand is over, do not try walking in the lunge position - use a beat to straighten up; release the lady's right hand if necessary (of your hands do slide apart, move the left hand to the lady's lower back - fingertips brushing spine - this is not used to pull the lady closer - just to indicate that the move isn't finished yet; most ladies will try to disengage when you release the hand.) If this hand is released, you can maintain the illusion of a 'normal' comb by keeping your right hand on your right shoulder.
  
  
• If a 'slow comb' fits with the music, the left hand moves up and round the lady's lower back so that fingertips are against the spine. just moving round laterally from the waist is not advised - remember that the ladies knee is between your legs. The hand on the back can apply gentle pressure to invite the lady closer still, or lead her in a small circle, but is not used to prevent her from escaping.
  
  
• Rocking steps for a slow comb should be small and come from the lower half of the body; larger steps throw you both off balance and look poor - simple transfer of weight is all that's necessary: feet stay on the floor. Shoulders and upper body follow the hips - it's not an arm-jive!
  
  
• An exit from a slow comb, should be prepared for; you can just take a step away from the lady while removing your hand from her back, but since her other hand is round your neck, she will probably follow you: You either have to remove that hand first, or place a hand on her opposite hip/arm so you can give a gentle push.
  
  
• The exit from a short comb is very small; you only need a small, gentle push to move the lady away, and you will both be stepping back - so you don't need to take huge steps. You should end the move with a relaxed and bent left arm (ladies right) it should never be at full stretch or you loose contact.
  When sliding down the arm, you should not have to retract it to catch the lady's hand - gentle extension and let the hand slide down to a natural hold. You should not loose contact with the lady.
  If catching with the right hand from a comb, take your left back to your side and offer at waist level; the action of stepping back will allow the ladies hand to just fall naturally to her side - you want your hand to intercept this path. If you leave your hand out, the lady will naturally aim to catch it (before you have offered the other hand.

I think that you could probably do a 'masterclass' workshop on each beginner move that would take an hour or so and only deal with the one move (with a few example variations) Would this be a good idea for a series of workshops?

Also during this transition it is very easy to forget and start your hand heading towards the ladies waste/hip. Now if a newer beginner hasn't seen the old version, is this just not going to make them even more uncomfortable as they wonder what you are up to?

yup, good point. And how can you even touch their right fore-arm without doing the rightguard test?

In general since beginning Ceroc I've been impressed by the way the beginner moves are made interesting enough to enjoy and provide a good basic variety to dance with but at the same time straight forward enough pick up after a few goes. However, as far as the combs go I think Ceroc have dropped the ball.

I disagree here - the "basics" are not intended to be "simple"; they are intended to give you a basic grounding for the rest of your dancing.

[MartinHarper]

Personally, I find the "slow comb" variation much easier to dance, because there's more wiggle room if we get behind the beat.

While it may be cringeworthy to spectators to see an entire room full of people wiggling, I'm not convinced it's more uncomfortable for beginners to do than other moves. Personally, I think I get more problems with beginner discomfort in moves like the first move, where there's more body-to-body contact. I guess I feel worse than I look.

I agree with Gadget about combs teaching a "core concept" - there's a fair chunk of comb-like stuff in MJ, and if beginner ladies are to try and follow intermediates in freestyle, at some point they're going to have to pick up the general idea of combs. Better that they have the opportunity to do that in the beginner class, I think, rather than waiting till it cycles round as a "classic" intermediate.

[John S]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

And of course, since the move is taught slowly, they end up in each others' faces for ages - far longer than the few counts you might actually stay there if you were to do it in freestyle.

It's not a recipe for relaxed learning for beginners, IMHO.

Chris

Far be it from me to say that I dislike a slow UCP move, but I agree completely with Gadget and others on this thread that this is NOT a move for beginners.

At a recent class I attended where it was taught, the teacher quite rightly took some time to make some important points, but kind of forgot that the class (including several on their first night) still had their arms round each other's necks and were trying to adopt the London Underground stare-avoidance technique. To then expect them to sway together in unison for 4 beats was asking a lot!

I know that could have happened on any kind of comb, even the short version, but I do think the slow version is to be avoided in beginner classes.

Only my opinion, of course!

[Piglet]

The "new" version of the slow comb is definitely not as nice as the original one that I was taught where the man had his left hand on the ladies right hip and could lead from there rather than her forearm.

I did find that the new version helped me to move my hips in sync with the man's (but only if he was leading properly and moving my arm in the correct direction... which didn't always happen - mind you it gives you a giggle to see that you're doing daft dancing - lol - the same could be said of the hip contact move - if the man is a good lead then you can be a good follow)

[Scarlet O Hara]

I also like the old version of the slow comb. Too many guy's know the old version and lead that one anyway or they remember half way through that they shouldn't have a hand on the waist and try to change back which just makes the move messy.

Were there really so many complaints that they needed to change this move and it is only changed if the guy leads it that way

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by John S

Far be it from me to say that I dislike a slow UCP move, but I agree completely with Gadget and others on this thread that this is NOT a move for beginners.

I didn't say that! I think the exact opposite: it IS a move for beginners, simply because it introduces a few "core concepts" and is a harder move to get right.

When dancing with beginners I tend to only throw in a comb as a finish, or at an impact point in the music. It is a "show off" move with a different look/feel to the rest of the beginner moves and gives some contrast to the in-out orbiting paths that most people fall into.

{BTW leading the hip wiggle with a hand on the fore-arm? How can that be easier than with a hand on hip?}
To me, the new version of the slow comb rates even lower than the "in and out" - where I keep wanting to break into the birdy song

[drathzel]

The new variation of the comb was taught last week and i was a bit confussed having learnt the original slow comb! The men also found it confusing and started using the hip and ignoring what franck was saying about using the arm!

I used to have a problem with the comb ie knowing when i was to go into it and the slow comb at least gave me the chance to get into the comb if i had been lost part way through the move! Now i dont have a problem and enjoy it!

[Kay]

I have to say that I'm not keen on the new version either. Why did it have to change anyway? The new back pass is not easy to lead either with your arm in a half nelson.

Kay.

[John S]

Originally Posted by Gadget

I didn't say that! I think the exact opposite: it IS a move for beginners, simply because it introduces a few "core concepts" and is a harder move to get right.

Originally Posted by Gadget

To me, the new version of the slow comb rates even lower than the "in and out" - where I keep wanting to break into the birdy song

Apologies Gadget, I misunderstood - I thought you didn't like it for beginners, but I see now that you just don't like it at all for anyone, and I certainly agree with that!

I share your feelings on the "in and out", which I just find embarrassing - it's ok as a warm-up and to teach arm tension, but that's all - it shouldn't be classed as a "move"!

[Bangers & Mash]

I've been taught both variations and the one you don't like can be quite useful as a get out if:

- the girl appears to be uncomfortable with a comb and you need to remedy the situation
- the music suddenly becomes more upbeat and you need to "move on"
- you suddenly find she has bad breath
- you find yourself in completely the wrong position

I have seen it work well before

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Bangers & Mash

I've been taught both variations and the one you don't like can be quite useful as a get out if:
~
I have seen it work well before

The only way I can envisage this move working "well" is to release the right hand immediatly it is over the head and use the left on the lady's arm to lead the lady. It would also have a few more advantages:
- eliminate the need for the ugly 'chicken elbow' often seen,
- introduce leading from other parts of the body (rather than just hands)
- make the lady wait for the lead rather than a simple release
- very little 'stooping' nescissary for different sized partners
It could also lead into some interesting variations now that the right hand is free...
Unfortunatly, this is not the move. (or not the way I have seen it taught)

You can use the "standard" comb to escape from the predicaments given as fillows:
- the girl appears to be uncomfortable with a comb and you need to remedy the situation - step back and don't do it again, keep to fast-paced and constant moving moves. Lots of stop-starts.
- the music suddenly becomes more upbeat and you need to "move on" - duck under the arm, rotate 180º either direction, step back,... how many exits do you want from a comb? Franck could give you more than I could. (and I can think on ....about 8 immediatly)
- you suddenly find she has bad breath - it's suddenly a short comb and you hope yours isn't as bad. (a lean finale rather than a seducer ...erm... anyone I do a lean exit with; I'm protecing you from my bad breath... {did I get away with that?})
- you find yourself in completely the wrong position - cool! a new move continue the movement and see where it goes.

There is nothing in the "new comb" (as it stands) that I can find better done than with the old one.