Clapping in Classes

[Zebra Woman]

Originally Posted by Daisy

I always get the most appalling urge to bark and clap the back of my hands together like Sammy the Seal

...and sometimes, I am appalled to find that I have given into this urge.

Daisy

Originally Posted by DavidB

What is the definition of not working?

And now I find myself clapping like Sammy the seal....at DavidB's masterful wit... honk honk
Yes 'appalling'...quite....but it was utterly spontaneous and so well deserved

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by DavidB

What is the definition of it not working?

For me selective editing of posts to alter their meaning, even in jest, is a big No-No. I almost sank to neg-repping. :ashamed:

I can only remember about 3 classes where the "give yourselves a clap" message has seemed to me out-of-place. Perhaps I have been lucky with my teachers.

For the majority of people positive reinforcement is a vital component of teaching, doing activities together is a vital element of binding groups together, and having a group indulge in a common activity at the behest of the teacher is a vital element of creating class discipline.

Like most things, if it is going to be done badly, then it had better not be done at all. As I have said, my personal experience is that it is done well, but that may be peculiar to the good teachers we have at Ceroc Central.

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by DavidB

I am very much against the 'give yourself a round of applause' idea.

... If it were natural then the class would do it without being asked ...

On some the rare ocassions when I have managed to dance my way through a complex class routine my partner has praised me. Even if all those close to us had been equally successful very, very few ladies are going to initiate a round of applause at that point. If the teacher reads the mood of the class correctly, and initiates the round of applause at that point, it would seem perfectly natural, and show one attribute of a good teacher.

[bigdjiver]

[quote=Zebra Woman] And now I find myself clapping like Sammy the seal....[quote] Reminds me of a bit of seminar craft. The presenter got us in a good mood by showing us a few worthwhile free gifts, and offering them to anyone who did a seal clapping impression. (I was quick enough to get one)

Later he picked up another bunch of gifts, and asked "Any more seal impressions?". Many of those that would not sink so low before leapt into frantic action. "Very good" said the presenter, and put the gifts back in the box ...

[DavidB]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

For me selective editing of posts to alter their meaning, even in jest, is a big No-No.

Please tell me how I altered your meaning? I do not accept that I have mis-quoted you at all. I took two successive lines from your post. In the first line you stated quite clearly that Modern Jive classes have a problem retaining beginners. Yet in the second you stated your belief that the current class format works.

It was not in jest. It was pointing out a very obvious contradiction in your post. I'm glad you went on to explain your position in more detail.

[drathzel]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

I hate it if someone tells me I'm good when actually I'm crap.

I think the thing about the whole clapping thing is that people know when they're being bullsh1tted. If the clapping is genuine appreciation for either achievement or effort, all well and good.

But if it's 'ooh we've reached the end of a move, so we clap now', then it's completely sh1te.

One of the things that amazes me every time it happens, is the way that people are so sentitive to bullsh1t when it's directed at them, yet they still dish it out as if the recipient is three years old.

One of life's little contradictions, in my experience

When i said a little encouragement goes a long way i didn't mean that you had to tell everyone they were great. Encouragment can be simply helping someone get their hand hold correct by showing them another way to do it! Encouragement is helping someone with their faults as well as praising then for what they are doing well! (make sense?)

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by DavidB

Please tell me how I altered your meaning? I do not accept that I have mis-quoted you at all. I took two successive lines from your post.

Originally Posted by djtrev

...I think we are very representative ...

Originally Posted by bigD

More than half of the people that come to a MJ class come less than 5 times. Less than 1 in a 1000 joins this forum.

Originally Posted by djtrev

and the only reason teachers think it works is because dancers are being told what to do and they do it rather than be the odd one out.

Originally Posted by bigD

That is one of the reasons a class works. Unity, solidarity, discipline, call it what you will, but the whole idea is to get everybody doing the same thing at the same time.

They were not successive lines, the quote mechanism does not quote quotes, and omitted the point to which I was responding.

Originally Posted by DavidB

In the first line you stated quite clearly that Modern Jive classes have a problem retaining beginners.

No, I did not.

Originally Posted by bigD

More than half of the people that come to a MJ class come less than 5 times.

Marketing guru: Domino's is a good example of customer satisfaction, where 41% of their sales are repeat orders
Ceroc Central achieves about double that. That is not "a problem", it is success . So many of them going on to "sell" MJ to their friends is almost mind boggling success. It is one of the reasons that I have taken so much interest in the Ceroc business model. We are almost up to the "craze" standard. We only need the returners rate and "recruiters" rate to rise by a couple of percent and we will be in runaway mode. We are dealing with compound growth here, minute percentages can have enormous effects. I would not spend so much time on this forum trying to learn how to do it better if I did not believe it mattered.

Originally Posted by DavidB

It was not in jest...

[DavidB]

Here is how I read it:

Lets make this forum sound as unrepresentative as possible - so quote some statistics that show how few beginners stay with MJ, and how few of those subsequently join this forum. (I read things that emphasise how many people 'leave' as being negative not positive)

Then lets make everything in the current class structure sound as wonderful as possible, so give a statement that states just how well it works.

My opinion is that your first statement - just how few beginners keep with MJ - doesn't correlate with your second statement. I don't care if you quoted the statistics for a different reason. If you quote statistics, don't be surprised when people quote them back to serve their own opinions.

Personally I think that this forum is a representative cross-section of people who do MJ. 100% of people who do MJ were once beginners. And 100% of people on this forum were once beginners.

And personally I think the current class structure works pretty well. It is just I would rather be treated as being British and not American.

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

We only need the returners rate and "recruiters" rate to rise by a couple of percent and we will be in runaway mode.

So perhaps if you listened to people who say that they find some parts of the class embarrassing, you might get your 2%?

Interestingly I can remember when Ceroc was a craze. In the mid 80's it was very popular in London. 2 years later Ceroc almost folded, because the craze had moved onto something else.

Lindy in the '90s was very popular with teenagers and 20-somethings in the US. It was a craze that started with the Gap ad, and lasted for about 2 years. But now it is nowhere near as popular - because the craze moved onto something else.

[DavidB]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

More than half of the people that come to a MJ class come less than 5 times.

And I accept that you meant this to be a very positive statement.

[Yogi_Bear]

I have returned to read this thread a short whille after watching 'My Shakespeare' (7.00 pm, Channel 4) about a group of (mostly) young people from Harlesden with no acting ability who after a couple of weeks' intensive coaching effort put on a performance of Romeo and Juliet at RADA. Inspirational and heartwarming stuff. And worthy of a huge amount of clapping.

As, for different reasons, was yesterday's programme about the offbeat opera staged in Paddington station....

I mention this just in order to point out the contrast between spontaneous applause for a truly memorable (and probably life-changing ) experience, and applause that's asked for because it's seen in some rule book or other as motivational and good for bonding....

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by DavidB

Here is how I read it:

Lets make this forum sound as unrepresentative as possible - so quote some statistics that show how few beginners stay with MJ, and how few of those subsequently join this forum. (I read things that emphasise how many people 'leave' as being negative not positive)

Then lets make everything in the current class structure sound as wonderful as possible, so give a statement that states just how well it works.

My opinion is that your first statement - just how few beginners keep with MJ - doesn't correlate with your second statement. I don't care if you quoted the statistics for a different reason. If you quote statistics, don't be surprised when people quote them back to serve their own opinions.

Personally I think that this forum is a representative cross-section of people who do MJ. 100% of people who do MJ were once beginners. And 100% of people on this forum were once beginners.

And personally I think the current class structure works pretty well. It is just I would rather be treated as being British and not American.

So perhaps if you listened to people who say that they find some parts of the class embarrassing, you might get your 2%?

Interestingly I can remember when Ceroc was a craze. In the mid 80's it was very popular in London. 2 years later Ceroc almost folded, because the craze had moved onto something else.

Lindy in the '90s was very popular with teenagers and 20-somethings in the US. It was a craze that started with the Gap ad, and lasted for about 2 years. But now it is nowhere near as popular - because the craze moved onto something else.

Here is how I read it:

You held me up to ridicule by not quoting me in context, which I believe was accidental, and you are now trying to bluster over the fact.

I listen to everybody, trying to collect .1% improvement here and .2% there, because .1% improvement per week matters. That is why I am so particular about the arguments being proper. I believe that appropriate clapping is a positive activity.

Your views, and the way you argue them, is why I have reservations about the MJDA. There is a human tendency to climb the ladder to a lofty place, and then remove some of the rungs so others cannot easily follow. The Franchisees try to listen to all of the marketplace.

The members of this forum are grossly unrepresentative of the people that have only come a few times. The (percentage that stay) are 100% - (the percentage that leave). I think probably everybody on this forum can do that math. I wrote it that way because I thought it was the clearest way of expressing it. I resent you implying that I was trying to mislead.

By your brain addled reckoning James Cronin was once a beginner, and had the most experience of Ceroc, so is most representative of all, therefore we should all blindly follow where he has led.

I am quite sure that there are a few first timers for whom it was a critical issue, and the main reason that they left. All of the people that now find clapping in the class embarrassing on this forum are amongst those who were not deterred. I suspect that it was amongst the least of their worries when they joined. I also believe for the vast majority of newcomers it is an extremely positive experience.

Either: It was difficult, I did it, the teacher recognises my achievement, and the class recognises my achievement.

or:

I failed. I want to be applauded next time, but in the meantime I can applaud those that did it.

------

Positive reinforcement works on the British too.

[Andy McGregor]

Phew! This thread has go very interesting

IMHO, clapping in classes is unlikely to put people off coming along. Personally I find it all a bit Americanised and 'fast food'. But then I've been going to classes for too many years where the teacher says 'give yourself and enormous round of applause'. I suppose I'm just a bit fed up with it. I think the clapping probably does lighten the mood of a beginners class, which could get a bit intense without something to lift the spirits.

But, I think there is no place for the clapping after every move once you start teaching people how to dance properly. You're there to learn to dance, not learn to clap.

[Magic Hans]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

Phew! This thread has go very interesting

IMHO, clapping in classes is unlikely to put people off coming along. Personally I find it all a bit Americanised and 'fast food'. But then I've been going to classes for too many years where the teacher says 'give yourself and enormous round of applause'. I suppose I'm just a bit fed up with it. I think the clapping probably does lighten the mood of a beginners class, which could get a bit intense without something to lift the spirits.

But, I think there is no place for the clapping after every move once you start teaching people how to dance properly. You're there to learn to dance, not learn to clap.

Agreed, with clauses!! [....and not the Santa type!!]

[ Bigotted Opinion on]
There is (almost) never black and white, and only ever shades. For this reason, standards used as rules will always fail ... eventually. Flexible standards used as guidelines can be far more effective.
Clearly positive reinforcement works .... ask an American
Clearly negative reinforcement works .... ask a depressive (someone prone to depression) ... I make no judgements, but observations.
Clearly "over the top praise" serves noone, sounds false, and puts people off, probably because it sounds false.
I believe lack of acknowledgement leads to apathy ... serving noone

It's a judgement call, a good teacher (or coach, as I would prefer), will read a class, and determine how to enhance their learning experience, be it by more work, more fun, lightening the mood, a bit of a pat on the back. They will make infrequent mistakes. A poor coach will be a poor judge and communcator.

I now, take little notice of clapping. I try to listen out for acknowledging the demo, teacher and dj at the end, out of politeness and respect. When I first started, the clapping for achievement meant more to me. It has now done it's job for me, and doesn't need to do it any more. Or at least, not for me. However, I appreciate how difficult the teaching/coaching is, and give the teach/coach a big "benefit of the doubt" [...when I remember to!] If the teacher sees fit to invite applause I will join in .... not for me, but for those who might want it!!
[Bigotted opinion off]

....to those involved ... please concentrate on the issues and don't get too personal ... I'm sure you're not meaning to get at each other .... but you seem to be!!

Take care ... Ian

[MartinHarper]

Teachers spend entirely too long wittering on about all the people they feel they have to publically thank and get everyone else to thank and exuberantly applaud. It's a modern jive class, not an Oscar acceptance speech.

The happy exception is a local organiser who, at the end of a freestyle event, thanked the dancers - "I hope you enjoyed it as much as I enjoyed watching you". I'm glad someone still remembers who pays the wages.

[TheTramp]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

Here is how I read it:

You held me up to ridicule by not quoting me in context, which I believe was accidental, and you are now trying to bluster over the fact.

I listen to everybody, trying to collect .1% improvement here and .2% there, because .1% improvement per week matters. That is why I am so particular about the arguments being proper. I believe that appropriate clapping is a positive activity.

Your views, and the way you argue them, is why I have reservations about the MJDA. There is a human tendency to climb the ladder to a lofty place, and then remove some of the rungs so others cannot easily follow. The Franchisees try to listen to all of the marketplace.

The members of this forum are grossly unrepresentative of the people that have only come a few times. The (percentage that stay) are 100% - (the percentage that leave). I think probably everybody on this forum can do that math. I wrote it that way because I thought it was the clearest way of expressing it. I resent you implying that I was trying to mislead.

By your brain addled reckoning James Cronin was once a beginner, and had the most experience of Ceroc, so is most representative of all, therefore we should all blindly follow where he has led.

I am quite sure that there are a few first timers for whom it was a critical issue, and the main reason that they left. All of the people that now find clapping in the class embarrassing on this forum are amongst those who were not deterred. I suspect that it was amongst the least of their worries when they joined. I also believe for the vast majority of newcomers it is an extremely positive experience.

Either: It was difficult, I did it, the teacher recognises my achievement, and the class recognises my achievement.

or:

I failed. I want to be applauded next time, but in the meantime I can applaud those that did it.

------

Positive reinforcement works on the British too.

I notice that DavidB hasn't posted since the little series of comments in this thread.

Personally, I miss him, and his (mostly) enlightened posts. And wish that he'd come back.

If it's any consolation, David. I agree with pretty much everything that you've said, and pretty much nothing that bigdjiver has said. Especially the personal insults (bluster, brain addled...) On the whole, I also know whose posts I'd prefer to read.

Oh. And I still hate the clapping in class after every move. But then, I don't like many Americanisms.....

[Zebra Woman]

Originally Posted by TheTramp

I notice that DavidB hasn't posted since the little series of comments in this thread.

Personally, I miss him, and his (mostly) enlightened posts. And wish that he'd come back.

If it's any consolation, David. I agree with pretty much everything that you've said, and pretty much nothing that bigdjiver has said. Especially the personal insults (bluster, brain addled...) On the whole, I also know whose posts I'd prefer to read.

Oh. And I still hate the clapping in class after every move. But then, I don't like many Americanisms.....

I agree with you Trampy .

I miss him too

ZW


On Topic -

I am happy to report that Jon Brett enjoyed a heartwarming and spontaneous round of applause at the end of his BFFF set on Friday .

He's the Daddy

[TheTramp]

Originally Posted by Zebra Woman

I agree with you Trampy .

First for everything

Of course, I'm not saying that it's this thread that has made him leave. I hope not...