Back-leading??

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Wendy

Well, I'm a "bulldozer"

Awww, your not that bad {}
Seriously, you're not - there are some ladies that do require physical strength to lead where you want them, or you just let them go into a move and catch them at the other end.

I don't think my particular 'style'* of dancing lends it's self to "back-leading", so ladies either have to give it up and pay attention or I remove most of my variations and dance 'normally'*. Generally it's a collaboration and we meet somewhere in the middle - probably a good thing.

{* these are relative terms }

[Graham]

It's interesting that this thread has come up. If I'm in taxi mode, then I will tell a backleader that she is doing it, and try to coach her out of it. If I'm not on duty, then sometimes in the beginner class I will still offer advice, especially if it's obviously someone brand new, because a lot of women really don't get the lead/follow thing to begin with. However, I try not to give unsolicited advice as a general rule, so most of the time when I'm off duty I say nothing. In freestyle I generally don't have a problem with backleading.

A couple of weeks ago, at a different venue from the one I taxi at, I had ten or twelve different partners in the beginner's class, and every single one of them was backleading quite strongly. One or two might be a coincidence, but surely this many must be a general failure in the way the class is being taught? I haven't got round to giving this feedback to the teacher yet, but seeing this thread has reminded me I really need to do so. When I am taking my own revision class I try to emphasize the lead/follow aspect of the dance, and it's amazing how many of the beginners have an "Oh! I didn't realise!" reaction, so I am aware how difficult it is to get it across.

The other thing to bear in mind is that women don't want to be left just standing there, so if the standard of leading is very poor, then the standard of following is also going to be low, and the incidence of backleading will be higher. So if you are faced with a woman who is backleading, first ask yourself whether your own lead is weak or late, before you pin the blame on her!

[El Salsero Gringo]

I know I'm the only one who ever posts anything positive about back-leading but I had an interesting experience on Monday, dancing with the regular teacher, who has quite phenomenal skill. For some reason within the first two bars we came to an unspoken arrangement that she was basically going to back-lead the dance, or much of it. That probably came about because I was feeling 'off', didn't find the track easy to interpret, or whatever, yet the music was very much up her street. So I ended up leading the framework of some of the moves, and she back-lead me through the rest, including extra footwork, pauses and shines - generally indicating where she wanted to go next.

The interesting thing was that it was much more challenging for me to go along with that rather than lead what would have likely been a fairly pedestrian choice of my own figures.

It definitely moved outside the normal boundaries of "he leads, she follows", yet it was still a great dance and we both enjoyed it.

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

I ended up leading the framework of some of the moves, and she back-lead me through the rest, including extra footwork, pauses and shines - generally indicating where she wanted to go next.

When you say she backlead you extra footwork, what do you mean? Was it a physical lead, or a visual "copy this" lead/signal? The former sounds difficult, but I can imagine it being plausible in close hold. I've come across the latter, but wouldn't normally call it backleading.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

When you say she backlead you extra footwork, what do you mean? Was it a physical lead, or a visual "copy this" lead/signal? The former sounds difficult, but I can imagine it being plausible in close hold. I've come across the latter, but wouldn't normally call it backleading.

Difficult to tie down, really, I think there was both. The problem wasn't in determining her communication, but I had to work hard to overcome my feeling that 'I wasn't doing it properly'.

By the way, why wouldn't you call visual leading from the girl a back-lead?

[Chef]

Originally Posted by Wendy

Well, I'm a "bulldozer" and I think that it's pretty sad that people are being advised not to dance with someone like me !!!!! I expect the reason I am a bulldozer is cos I spend most of my dancing life with beginners and also cos people haven't taken the time to explain to me what I'm doing wrong How am I supposed to get any better !!!!!!!!!?????????

David Chu is one person who has actually tried to help by getting me to relax....I had no idea of how awful it must be to dance with me ... especially awful if I know a track really well and am full of enthusiasm ... clearly other people have been grinning (through gritted teeth!!!) and bearing it for 4 years and have done little to help....

I think it's great that we are encouraging and supporting people like Ducasi so they can become better and more confident dancers...and yet the way to treat bulldozers is not to dance with them ????!!!!!!!! Something not quite right there IMO.

Wxxx

As has been said before, the term "Bulldozer" is a relative term and people have assured you that you are not one. I do think that it would be best for beginner men to avoid dancing with bulldozer women because if they do continue to dance with them they will never learn to lead. The beginner men will never learn to lead because their experience will be "it doesn't matter how I lead this particular move the woman always does it anyway". The need to get better is removed from them because everyting they do ends up in the woman doing a move.

Experienced leaders can cope with "bulldozers" because they are already addicted to dance and won't let one experience put them off.

As for no one telling you that you do this or that - well, you are a taxi dancer! The beginner men don't know enough to be able to say anything to you with any authority and the people in any position to give you any critical advice know better than give unsolicited advice. If you want to know then you have to ask and you have to be prepared to hear things you may not like (I know by recent experience). Once you have got over the feeling of injured pride you can start devising ways of tackling any bad habits that you have picked up - and by practicing them endlessly, made permanent.

In your role as a taxi dancer you do get a huge exposure to beginner men and that means that you have to "help" them through moves. The problem arises when this "helping" becomes a permanent feature of your normal dancing. My partner and I find that dancing with your eyes closed (or with a blindfold) is great. It also helps me stop back leading when I dance as a follower.

Women that "bulldoze" are the absolute death knell for beginner men. It just extends the time until the men feel that they are in control of the dance - sometimes to the point where they give up.

Some women are so strong about "bulldozing" that I don't even attempt to control them. Fortunately women like this are extrememly rare. I start off trying to lead them into an interesting move that will end up hitting a break or a point for musical accents and - whoa - they are off with the fairies - charging through a move that they know, spinning 3 or 4 times when I hadn't lead it, missing the accent point in the music. I could struggle with them, but I refuse to. I came to have a good time rather than a wrestling match. So it is back to doing beginner moves, sod the music, just pump out those moves, let go with the fingers when she tries to yank my arms off. It is only 3 minutes or so - just remember your best smile and to say "thank you".

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Graham

It's interesting that this thread has come up. If I'm in taxi mode, then I will tell a backleader that she is doing it, and try to coach her out of it. If I'm not on duty, then sometimes in the beginner class I will still offer advice, especially if it's obviously someone brand new, because a lot of women really don't get the lead/follow thing to begin with. However, I try not to give unsolicited advice as a general rule, so most of the time when I'm off duty I say nothing. In freestyle I generally don't have a problem with backleading.

Sounds like a sensible way to proceed. I'm a bit stronger on the "never offer advice in freestyle" thing - I think you've got to be extremely cautious about commenting on anyone's style during a freestyle dance - even with the best of intentions, you can give offence.
I'm also pretty poor at telling what my partner is doing wrong, maybe I'm just not paying attention

[Wendy]

As a taxi dancer I have the opportunity to do exercises like "dance with your eyes closed" and another one I did last session was to get the guys to do the moves but to stop every couple of movements (in their own time) to see if the ladies were anticipating.... ladies launched themselves into the rest of the move with no lead....and I think I got my point across !!!! (I think in a fun way !!!) I also do that if I can in a class when I dance as a man (with ladies who I know well and who have been coming for a while) and we both have a laugh about that too...

CEROC is taught for/to the men .. "do this do that".... the ladies are given little or no guidance really...and then in the intermediate class it's more of the same... .. more thousands of moves executed badly and then not even to be seen again in freestyle... why can't we have more lead /follow exercies like those mentioned above in EVERY single beginner class!!!!! People don't seem to get bored doing the same beginner moves for months and even years !!!!!

I think people forget that women are terrified to get it wrong (or to be seen to get it wrong - cos it's always the man's fault of course ) in the class.. they want to finish at the same time as the teacher.... and a lot of beginner men get it wrong !!! We also forget that BOTH people are seeing the move done so of course the woman is going to participate so it works !!!!! ....... and on many occasions guys say to me.. "oh good - someone who knows what they are doing" and I always add "I'm just doing what you make me do... you're in control !"

I made a real effort to allow myself to be led in the intermediate class last night... and many of the guys got the timing wrong and really didn't make me move where we were meant to go ..and I ended up facing sideways instead of being in front of the guy (facing away) and that was at the END of the class... he simply hadn't got it !!!!!! I don't care cos I'm an experiecned dancer but if that had been in a beginner class on my first night I would have probably have felt really uncomfortable and would have blamed myself for not getting it !!!!!

Quite simply men are not taught to lead (they are toaught moves) and women are most certainly not taught how to follow..... and if I hadn't gone to workshops (especially those run by Lilly and David B) in addition to normal class nights I guess I'd never have picked up what I'm really supposed to be doing !!!!

So give those (us) bulldozers a break guys.. I really don't think it's their fault.. THEY HAVEN'T BEEN TAUGHT TO KNOW ANY DIFFERENT !!!!!!!!!!!!! Spend some time with them.. think of clever ways to help them improve without hurting their pride... It can only be a good thing for all of us !!!!!!! Remember those taxi dancers and kind ladies who did that for you once !!!!!!!!!!!???????????????? Give a little back... oh.. and learn to lead better, keep in time with the music and leave us a little space at the breaks !!!!! Do all that and I'll follow like a wee feathery shadow - it's not asking for much !!!!

Wxxx

[JoC]

In a class I find paying less attention to what the teacher is saying (me being a follower, no offence to teachers ) helps keep the followers role more firmly in my head. I watch the demo's of the moves, but try not to listen to the instructions in detail, just tuning in for the parts where the follower needs to understand a particular signal, the rest of the information just flows away out of my brain never to be seen again. I'm sure the occasions when I do listen more than usual I seem to get all mangled and have to actively stop the temptation to back lead during the class.

If a move is being danced in freestyle I wont know it's coming so having the move embedded in my mind wont be of use.

So when I move round the class and someone asks me if I know the move yet the answer is always no!

Having said that I know I've led myself into a few returns that weren't, and the rest...

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

By the way, why wouldn't you call visual leading from the girl a back-lead?

To me, back-leading (or leading) is where I'm only being given one option for what to do, and the situation you describe does sound like that.
I was thinking of cases where the girl is giving visual cues that are more like "I can do this - can you match it?". In these cases I have several options: match it, one-up it, lead out of it, drool, etc, so I don't feel that I'm being back-lead - instead, I'd use the phrase "active following".

I find back-following tolerable, but much less fun than proper following, so I don't really care for it.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

I was thinking of cases where the girl is giving visual cues that are more like "I can do this - can you match it?". In these cases I have several options: match it, one-up it, lead out of it, drool, etc, so I don't feel that I'm being back-lead - instead, I'd use the phrase "active following".

Hmmm, I've had this a few times - typically in a facing double open handhold with tension, when the girl suddenly starts doing some weird and wonderful footwork routine... I do find that sort of thing a little annoying, because if I don't recognise this choreographed routine, I won't know when it's going to end, so I'm just standing there like a lummox* for an indeterminate time. On the other hand, it's usually good to watch! And I guess it's my fault for leading her into that position in the first place.

* More than usual.

[spindr]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

And I guess it's my fault for leading her into that position in the first place.

Not necessarily.

Of course, if you've a wicked sense of humour there's no reason to immediately lead something when the lady *thinks* she's finished -- you can stand there and wait and see what she does when she gets *unexpected* time to play

SpinDr.

[Chicklet]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Hmmm, I've had this a few times - typically in a facing double open handhold with tension, when the girl suddenly starts doing some weird and wonderful footwork routine... I do find that sort of thing a little annoying, because if I don't recognise this choreographed routine,

What makes you think it's a choreographed routine????
That position is possibly the MOST common open "invitation" and certainly one that lots of girls will recognise as the premier "play" / "perform" position, so if you find it annoying, what else were you actually trying to (have her) do at the time?

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Chicklet

What makes you think it's a choreographed routine????

Because I've seen the same thing done by different girls at different times, basically.
I see what you mean about play/perform, good point, and I'll certainly do my best to let the girls have the space to do their thing. Although that's also my favourite position for a merengue / boogaloo play, that's really the only position you can do that stuff from...
But, and this is my main problem, when and how do I take back control? It's sometimes not easy to tell, especially with the routine I'm thinking of (lots of footwork, no dips or obvious finishes - please don't ask me to describe it!). And the transfer isn't obvious - to me, at least. Hmmm, I bet this is covered in some workshop or other...

[Wendy]

Isn't is obvious when she has finished ???? I do wee wiggly things at these times but it doesn't usually take very long and I thought my lack of wiggling/movement and my big "oh my god take back the lead" staring eyes would be a clear sign that I'd done my theng ?????

Wxx

[Chicklet]

would have to agree with Wendy, the eyes should be a big giveaway if nothing else!

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

so I'm just standing there like a lummox* for an indeterminate time.

Top tip:

The secret is to look cool and appreciative even though you might feel like a lummox.

Actually that applies to most of dancing in my experience.

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

The secret is to look cool and appreciative even though you might feel like a lummox.

There has to be workshop in there somewhere ??!!!!

Wx

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Wendy

There has to be workshop in there somewhere ??!!!!

It's what they teach at elite venues

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Wendy

Isn't is obvious when she has finished ???? I do wee wiggly things at these times but it doesn't usually take very long and I thought my lack of wiggling/movement and my big "oh my god take back the lead" staring eyes would be a clear sign that I'd done my theng ?????

Well, a clear sign of something...
To me, mmm, no, it's not always obvious to me when the girl is finished. But it could be me - "Control-passing and me is not good", I suspect. I fall to pieces with all this fancy footwork, I'm just lost in appreciation