Back-leading??

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

It's what they teach at elite venues

Oh God, please don't start...

[MartinHarper]

I found that learning Lindy helped me to cope better with MJ women who "play", simply because "playing" (from both partners) is a bigger part of Lindy, and it's taught in regular lessons. I imagine that learning WCS would be similarly useful.

A while back, as soon as I saw my partner playing, I would immediately stop leading, with the aim of giving her space and time to play in. This was bad - with the absence of lead/follow, my partner didn't know how much time she had to play, I didn't know how much she wanted. The overall effect was awkward and disconnected. It also deprived my partner of the chance to play within what I was leading.

Now, I take the view that if my partner wants additional time and space to play in, beyond the gaps in what I'm currently leading, then she has to request it via her following. If she doesn't make it sufficiently clear that she wants extra time, then she doesn't get any. I guess it's a similar attitude to the follower who says "unless you lead me, I won't move". This approach seems to work better for me.

[Wendy]

I was accused of being elitist once and I'm a Taxi dancer !!!! (G made me edit what I really wanted to say.. god he has such a strong lead !!!)

Wxxx

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

as soon as I saw my partner playing, I would immediately stop leading, with the aim of giving her space and time to play in. This was bad - with the absence of lead/follow, my partner didn't know how much time she had to play, I didn't know how much she wanted. The overall effect was awkward and disconnected. It also deprived my partner of the chance to play within

But doesn't the music have something to do with it to ???? I don't just mince around cos I feel like or cos I want control or whatever.. it's cos the music is saying "do something now .. well not now but in a minute... here it comes.. NOW!!!!".... that's why with some guys (the ones who must be hearing the music as I do) I feel they aren't surprised or annoyed or feel like I'm some bulldozing freak, stomping over their moves in my Doc Martyn dance shoes !!!! whilst with others this clearly is the case... I mean when you hear "perhaps , perhaps , perhaps" you just can't carry on as if it's "call on me" can you !!!!!


Wxxx

[Bryman]

I mean when you hear "perhaps , perhaps , perhaps" you just can't carry on as if it's "call on me" can you !!!!!


Wxxx[/quote]


......perhaps, and perhaps not! Depends on who is doing the hearing, and if he/she has been given permission to "speak" in the dance "conversation" by the partner. This seems to be determined by similar variables to be found in any interpersonal interaction, including (amongst a huge number of other factors) personality, familiarity with the partner, articulation of the shared language and the goals, conscious and unconscious, of each partner. I think that this, as well as the pure and simple pleasure of moving to music with another person is what keeps the mystery, and therefore endless fascination of dance alive for so many people.
But Wendy, I know that I enjoy hearing your "voice" when we dance - and it is definitely NOT the sound of a bulldozer engine!

Bry

[Wendy]

Well this just fills me with joy and I don't mean the complimentary bit (that fills me with.. well.. em .. the stuff I get filled with when I dance with you - if you are who I think you are !!!!) where was I???? .... sigh...

Originally Posted by Bryman

......perhaps, and perhaps not! Depends on who is doing the hearing, and if he/she has been given permission to "speak" in the dance "conversation" by the partner. This seems to be determined by similar variables to be found in any interpersonal interaction, including (amongst a huge number of other factors) personality, familiarity with the partner, articulation of the shared language and the goals, conscious and unconscious, of each partner.

oh yeah.. "sigh"......

I think that women aren't heard (in the world generally and in the world of CEROC).... there is that "be seen and not heard" thing that children were meant to do in olden times.... and sometimes as a woman, who is not a child, it is hard to wait for "permission" when you know in your heart that what you have to say/dance is valid !!!! It is then hard not to scream to be heard (cos we aren't given the chance to practise at a normal level very often !!!!) and then you are treated as an outcast.... The men who have little to say, or say it badly are in charge....

I tried to REALLY follow last night.. to be an extension of the guys' every whim (and mistake and lack of appreciation of the music!!!) and I really felt quite sad.. (I left before the Intermediate class and really felt like giving up altogether)... I too have something to express, to communicate ..to share.. and maybe cerocland is not the place for me....

You are a very special and rare person/dancer who listens to his partner... AND to the music!!!! You'd be amazed at how many men do not !!!

Wxxx

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Wendy

Doesn't the music have something to do with it too?

Music has a lot to do with it. My partner and I can both "play", within the boundaries of what I'm leading, according to what we hear in the music. I can lead different things according to what I hear in the music. My partner can choose to request additional "play time" according to what she hears in the music.

On the other hand, I don't believe that the music is an excuse for completely ignoring a clear lead. If I lead a spin, I want to be given some kind of spin. I'm happy for it to be a double spin, or an extended spin, or a slow sexy spin, or even a jumping roundhouse kick - whatever my partner feels fits the music best. I'm not happy if I lead a spin and get a freeze.

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

I'm not happy if I lead a spin and get a freeze.

I do a great freeze when I'm meant to spin !!!!!!

Wxxx

[JoC]

Originally Posted by Wendy

and maybe cerocland is not the place for me....

Hope that wasn't serious Wendy, you're one of my role models!

I'm a little confused between what some are interpreting as back-leading, a follower doing her (or his) own thang, and followers highjacking moves. The latter two seem to be two options for adding variety and interest and are clearly deliberate. The former presumably is never done consciously unless by prior arrangement...

Can anyone clarify? How does a leader differentiate between the follower backleading, one claiming a moment to do their own thang, and one highjacking? Is it in the eyes? For a highjack is it the eyes and the demanding, imposing body language (as per footwork class last night in Perth)? And would the leader be less annoyed if they knew it was a highjack? Do some leaders need to chill out and go with the flow a bit more...

Sad to hear that some of the guys seem to get upset when a woman does her thang...I'm busy trying to learn how to / get brave enough to do more of my own thang, because seeing the good 'uns at it, I think it looks great. I'm sure there's a whole other thread on this somewhere...

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by JoC

Can anyone clarify? How does a leader differentiate between the follower backleading, one claiming a moment to do their own thang, and one highjacking? Is it in the eyes?

Good question. I'd love to know that too . I don't think there's an obvious answer, but I'd say that like all things, it depends on how familiar you are with your partner. If I know my partner, at least a little, then I know how much rope to extend in the leash, so to speak; you get used to the style, you know their capabilities, and you have the confidence and trust in them to let them go away, and come back, and still be in time and in style with the music.
But if I don't know my partner at all, and she does weird footie things (!), and it's a dark crowded room, with loud music, and I'm trying to think how to get the next move into the next music sequence, then it throws me a little...

Originally Posted by JoC

Do some leaders need to chill out and go with the flow a bit more...

Um, yep, probably "It's only a dance. It's only a dance"...

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by JoC

How does a leader differentiate between the follower backleading, one claiming a moment to do their own thang, and one highjacking?

I think your distinction is only imaginary. If the lady wants to do her own moves, it's up to the leader to decide if he's going to let her, or what he's going to do about it. If she's a beginner who wouldn't know a piece of fancy footwork from a piece of fancy needlework then that's one thing. If she's an experienced dancer putting in her own shines, then that's something else. Why the need for precriptive rules?

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

I think your distinction is only imaginary. If the lady wants to do her own moves, it's up to the leader to decide if he's going to let her, or what he's going to do about it. If she's a beginner who wouldn't know a piece of fancy footwork from a piece of fancy needlework then that's one thing. If she's an experienced dancer putting in her own shines, then that's something else. Why the need for precriptive rules?

I don't think its 'imaginary' to have a distinction between back leading and 'doing your own thing'. IMO back leading is the follower leading the move as she knows it or thinks it should be going - very different from 'improvising' - which is usually an unplanned response to the music (well it is for me anyway!).

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Lynn

I don't think its 'imaginary' to have a distinction between back leading and 'doing your own thing'. IMO back leading is the follower leading the move as she knows it or thinks it should be going - very different from 'improvising' - which is usually an unplanned response to the music (well it is for me anyway!).

OK then. Back leading is when the follower indicates (by some kind of lead) where she want the leader to go, or what step she wants him to do. But that can be part of a lady's improvisation as well, as I found out the other day.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

OK then. Back leading is when the follower indicates (by some kind of lead) where she want the leader to go, or what step she wants him to do. But that can be part of a lady's improvisation as well, as I found out the other day.

I agree with your definition, but for that occasion, I'd say that's crossing the line between improvisation to back-leading. I'd say that improvisation should be limited to one move sequence, then control is handed back - otherwise, thin end of the wedge, where will it stop, end of the world... But then, as had been pointed out, I probably should chill out more about this sort of thing.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

I'd say that improvisation should be limited to one move sequence, then control is handed back - otherwise, thin end of the wedge, where will it stop, end of the world...

What, we have to think while we are dancing? Isn't that the man's role?

When I am 'improvising' I am responding to the music. I don't plan it, it just tends to 'happen', and if its someone I haven't danced with before I will try to see how comfortable they are with me doing a little bit first. Or if its 'that' type of track I might even forewarn or ask before I do anything.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

I agree with your definition, but for that occasion, I'd say that's crossing the line between improvisation to back-leading. I'd say that improvisation should be limited to one move sequence, then control is handed back - otherwise, thin end of the wedge, where will it stop, end of the world... But then, as had been pointed out, I probably should chill out more about this sort of thing.

You're all so keen to tie things down with definitions, lines to be crossed, limits, what's permissible, what isn't and so on. It's a dance, not a court of law!

If backleading leads to a better dance, then great. If it doesn't, and it doesnt usually, then in those cases, not so great.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by JoC

an anyone clarify? How does a leader differentiate between the follower backleading, one claiming a moment to do their own thang, and one highjacking? Is it in the eyes?

I shall rashly attempt a definition, although I imagine there already is one lurking somewhere else on the forum.

Backleading is where the follower is guiding the leader through a pattern (ie a "move" such as first move, yoyo, etc, or part of one). This could be due to improvisation, or it could just be a bad habit. The follower dances her own part without any lead from the leader, and in doing so moves the leader's hand to his shoulder, her hip, etc, so that the overall impression is similar to what it would look like if he were genuinely leading. The leader is back-following, using his knowledge of the patterns to recognise what the follower is backleading and trying to move accordingly.

A hijack is where the follower actually switches roles and leads her partner (usually temporarily). A simple hijack is to turn or spin your partner. The difference is that the follower is genuinely leading the pattern(s) - she must lead the leader to perform the requisite movements and not rely on him filling bits in by recognition.

Claiming a moment is simple - the follower simply interrupts the pattern to insert something of her own which the leader didn't lead. A slow turn rather than a normal-speed one, for example. The leader is still leading the overall pattern, but the follower is inserting an extra bit, and when she's finished the leader continues with whatever he was planning to do.

Having said that, the first sign a leader will get for all of them will be that his partner feels different, so it can be difficult to differentiate unless you have a good connection with your partner, and/or are used to them.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Lynn

What, we have to think while we are dancing? Isn't that the man's role?

"With great power comes great responsibility". Apparently.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Graham

I shall rashly attempt a definition,
<snip good explanation>

There you go, spoiling a perfectly good argument with clarity and reasonableness
Hell, I'm off home to work on emptying my trousers...

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

"With great power comes great responsibility". Apparently.

Well said, TardisTrousers.


Hoo ha ha ha he he he