Back-leading??

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Graham

I shall rashly attempt a definition...

Excellent definitions.

For me, a follower "claiming a moment" feels quite different to backleading: it is as if my partner is moving more languidly in response to my lead, or as if she is much heavier. She's still following, but changing the manner in which she is following so as to elicit a certain response.

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Wendy

I too have something to express, to communicate ..to share..

I've heard similar commnts to Wendy's from other folks, so this is a generalised rant. I'd say there are essentially two options available to a woman in that position:
1) Dance as a lead
2) Learn how to express stuff whilst still following.

(gross generalisation mode on...)
Deliberate back-leading is bad, because back-following sucks. It's not possible to back-follow nuances of a move. It's not possible to back-follow moves I haven't seen before. It's not possible to back-follow improvised or unusual moves. It's not possible to express anything worthwhile whilst back-following. Back-leads are unclear and uncomfortable - worse than a beginner lead on their first night. This is because neither back-leading nor back-following are formally taught, and MJ was designed to be lead, not back-lead.

It's not about control - it's about fun.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

I've heard similar commnts to Wendy's from other folks, so this is a generalised rant. I'd say there are essentially two options available to a woman in that position:
1) Dance as a lead
2) Learn how to express stuff whilst still following.

Not sure exactly how I do this, as its something I've only 'reintroduced' into my dancing more recently (and possibly somewhat unconsciously)... - someone please tell me if any of the following (no pun intended) are problems -
- putting in little 'footwork' bits (not 'set' footwork, just the way I am stepping) - try to do this within the framework of following the lead, so I am still going where he wants me to
- slowing down at the end of a move, eg sweeping round more slowly (and slinkily) instead of a standard 'turn & return'
- taking some 'time out' from following to do my own thing a bit - never in the middle of a move, not for very long, and regular partners will probably expect it...
- and maybe I shouldn't do this one but I just can't help it - marking breaks or phrases where I can hear them and the lead isn't marking them at all.
I haven't heard many complaints (though was told 'I can't do slower' when I tried some slower turn things, appropriately to Kylie's Slow, but I don't think it was a complaint as such).

But I don't think any of those would consitute back leading, would they?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

(gross generalisation mode on...)

You said it, buddy.

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Deliberate back-leading is bad, because back-following sucks.

No it doesn't.

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

It's not possible to back-follow nuances of a move.

Yes it is.

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

It's not possible to back-follow moves I haven't seen before.

Of course it is.

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

It's not possible to back-follow improvised or unusual moves.

You can do that, too.

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

It's not possible to express anything worthwhile whilst back-following.

Oh yes it is! (going into pantomime mode here.)

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Back-leads are unclear and uncomfortable - worse than a beginner lead on their first night.

She's behind you...

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

This is because neither back-leading nor back-following are formally taught, and MJ was designed to be lead, not back-lead.

Look, just because they're not taught doesn't mean you can't do them. Try extending your abilities to include following from a leader's position.

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

It's not about control - it's about fun.

Oh, well, that bit I agree with.

[David Bailey]

As I seem to be taking the "control freak" side of the argument...

Originally Posted by Lynn

someone please tell me if any of the following (no pun intended) are problems -
- putting in little 'footwork' bits (not 'set' footwork, just the way I am stepping) - try to do this within the framework of following the lead, so I am still going where he wants me to

Fantastic, please do more of this, I personally love it - hopefully I won't get so distracted I forget my next move.

Originally Posted by Lynn

- slowing down at the end of a move, eg sweeping round more slowly (and slinkily) instead of a standard 'turn & return'

As long as it's two beats, rather than 1.5 or something weird, fine.

Originally Posted by Lynn

- taking some 'time out' from following to do my own thing a bit - never in the middle of a move, not for very long, and regular partners will probably expect it...

Hmmm, depends on the context, but I think I'd be a little antsy unless I knew you well.

Originally Posted by Lynn

and maybe I shouldn't do this one but I just can't help it - marking breaks or phrases where I can hear them and the lead isn't marking them at all.

Actually, I don't mind this, it may give me some insight or even inspiration for next time, especially if I don't know the track (and so don't know where the breaks are). OK, so I'm inconsistent - "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds".

Originally Posted by Lynn

But I don't think any of those would consitute back leading, would they?

I think the "doing your own thing" is the only one I might have a problem with, depends how much of your own thing you do of course

I was trying at Hipsters last night to put into practise the whole "open invitation" thing (occasionally I do listen to advice ), and it just wasn't working for me. I think that's something you really need to do with a regular partner - in fact, I think that criterion applies to all this area.

Another "invitation to play", obviously, is the basic LH hold extended, where I just kind of spreads my legs a little, wiggle and look expectantly at my partner. I have to say here that Lory's got a great"walk up the arm" routine with that one, and I love it. But again, it's back to the "know your partner" thing...

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

I think your distinction is only imaginary. If the lady wants to do her own moves, it's up to the leader to decide if he's going to let her, or what he's going to do about it. If she's a beginner who wouldn't know a piece of fancy footwork from a piece of fancy needlework then that's one thing. If she's an experienced dancer putting in her own shines, then that's something else. Why the need for precriptive rules?

If I come across a beginner who wants to do her own thing, I let her, and slip the MJ in where I can. I think that she is there to enjoy herself and express herself. I do not care how awful it appears to me. I only really stop her if she slips into being dangerous. This is not quite as liberal as it sounds, because "slipping in the MJ where I can" is code for offering two hands, and if accepted, she is into a vice-like basket walk-around and a lecture on the philosophy of MJ.

[bigdjiver]

For me it is one weakness of Ceroc that it the norm for it to be a male led dance. To a small extent that is compensated for in that there is nothing to stop a lady taking the leaders part, or a man taking the followers part. I think that the leader should allow the follower space, if they want it. I think Hijaaking is alright if the leader is comfortable with it. There are very few hijaaks that I like. do not like being hijaaked without consent at a Ceroc event. I would rather they just said "Sorry, no, thank you" if they do not want to dance Ceroc, It is not "just three minutes", it is three dance minutes.

[MartinHarper]

All this in my opinion, as ever, and making generalisations...

Originally Posted by Lynn

putting in little 'footwork' bits (not 'set' footwork, just the way I am stepping) - try to do this within the framework of following the lead, so I am still going where he wants me to.

Yep, great.

Originally Posted by Lynn

slowing down at the end of a move, eg sweeping round more slowly (and slinkily) instead of a standard 'turn & return'

So, you're lead a return, and you perform a return, but take a little longer to do it?
This is great when that extra time is requested (non-verbally) by the woman, and that request is accepted by the man. That way, both dancers know what is going on, and the lines of communication are kept open. If the woman suddenly goes into slinky mode with zero warning, then that's not so great.

Originally Posted by Lynn

taking some 'time out' from following to do my own thing a bit - never in the middle of a move, not for very long, and regular partners will probably expect it...

So, instead of doing a return, and going straight into the next move, you're doing a return, playing for a couple of counts, and then going into the next move? Again, great if it works as a request/accept thing, not so great if you literally abandon following.

Originally Posted by Lynn

marking breaks or phrases where I can hear them and the lead isn't marking them at all.

Great if the woman is marking breaks within the context of what the guy's leading. Not so great if she's just backleading the guy into a freeze.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

This is not quite as liberal as it sounds, because "slipping in the MJ where I can" is code for offering two hands, and if accepted, she is into a vice-like basket walk-around and a lecture on the philosophy of MJ.

Ooh, nasty

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

For me it is one weakness of Ceroc that it the norm for it to be a male led dance.

Well, that's one weakness of any partner dance, surely? I'm not an expert, but the few styles I've done all have a leader and a follower, with the leader generally being the man*. I'm not sure how else it could be organised - you can't really discuss it between you as you dance. Although, I have to admit, it'd be interesting to try swapping leads in a dance, or at least to watch it being tried

* Honorable exceptions to Salsa Rosada / Rivoli Ballroom type events of course, but even with those, there's a leader and follower...

[Graham]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Although, I have to admit, it'd be interesting to try swapping leads in a dance, or at least to watch it being tried

It's quite fun actually - I've done it a couple of times.

Those of you who do not think the woman should do anything except by invitation, I think you're probably missing out on a lot of ideas for musical interpretation. I like to think I (now) have reasonable musicality, but I wouldn't have got here without being shown possibilities by various partners along the way (one in particular stands out of course ). The other thing I am very conscious of is that if the leader is completely ignoring the music it must drive you nuts as a follower. It's like sitting in a dual control car and being told you mustn't touch the pedals unless invited by the (learner) driver, no matter how fast you're approaching a junction

[bigdjiver]

It is possible to swap by pre-arranged invitation - one method is for the leader to simply turn his hand so that it is now resting on his partners, in follower mode. I have not tried this, but I believe others have.

[Wendy]

I'm not that interested in taking the lead (funnily enough!!).. when I do I just say " You be the girl now!" I'm an average lead I expect (some girls think I'm quite good but on the other hand I don't really aspire to being a good lead !! I really only do it when there there is a serious shortage of men or if some of the boys want to get in touch with their feminine side Being the lead stops me being as expressive as I would want to be and it bugs me when I want to do something dramatic at a break and I don't have anything dramatic up my sleave...

Taking the lead and taking control - not the same thing !

Some Freudian expert might say that I want the control without the responsbility.. sounds about right

Wxxx

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Wendy

I want the control without the responsibility

Try solo dance.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Try solo dance.

Why didn't I think of that...

I was going to quote Tom Stoppard in reply but Martin beat me to it
Oh what the hell, I'll do it anyway:
"...responsibility without power, the prerogative of the eunuch throughout the ages."
Not something you want your leader to be thinking of, in an average dance, I'd suggest...

[Lory]

Originally Posted by Graham

The other thing I am very conscious of is that if the leader is completely ignoring the music it must drive you nuts as a follower.

with bells on!

[CJ]

Nuts with bells on?!?!?!?!!??!?

Ouch.

[Lory]

Originally Posted by Ceroc Jock

Nuts with bells on?!?!?!?!!??!?

Ouch.

CJ don't lie, that's given you ideas, hasn't it?

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Try solo dance.

Well I used to do that a lot and found great wee clubs that played music that made me dance all night. It is harder to get music I like in noncerocland - a generational thing I expect...

I WANT to do partner dancing...... I WANT to be a better follower and I think I am getting better....

I can't believe I'll ever enjoy dancing with someone who doesn't hear the beat.. unless I'm taxi-ing and then I'll try to help them to get it.... but I'm in a different mode when I'm taxi-ing or dancing with beginners.... I'm not really dancing....I'm teaching..and being nice and supportive and encouraging and all that stuff.... and maybe since I do taxi/dance with beginners a lot ...I really want to let rip when I'm not..... so maybe my expectations are too high...

And BTW I can name a few guys who do CEROC but who are really doing solo dancing !!!!!!!!

And how come I have sussed all the moves some guys do (cos god knows they do the same ones EVERY song ) and yet the few wiggly bits I add to a track are always such a surprise to THEM !!!!!!!

I go to workshops and dance weekends in the hope of improving my dancing/picking up style tips etc .... yet so many guys stay in the same boring rut for years !!!!!!! ...oops... bet I've gone off topic now as well .....

I back-lead sometimes and I will try not to in the future and if I do, please point it out to me...
IF YOU DARE !!!!!!!



Wx

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Wendy

How come I have sussed all the moves some guys do [...] and yet the few wiggly bits I add to a track are always such a surprise to them?

I think the more interesting question is this:
"How can I let my partner know that I want to add a wiggly bit, so that it's less likely to surprise him or come across as back-leading?"

There's a useful thread on essentially this subject: It's offical - ladies can lead a break! - there's an excellent post by DavidB, for example. You've already read it, but it might be worth looking over again.