Back-leading??

**Allez-Cat** · 4th-March-2005, 05:40 PM

Guidance from the Wise Ones please.

Pre-empting, anticipation, ladies ‘doing their thang’, hi-jacking and ‘sabotage’: I understand these expressions. But what on earth is “back-leading”? Hope it’s nothing to do with the immortal ‘Back Pass’ and those giggling medics again…

TheTramp · 4th-March-2005, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez-Cat

Guidance from the Wise Ones please.

Pre-empting, anticipation, ladies ‘doing their thang’, hi-jacking and ‘sabotage’: I understand these expressions. But what on earth is “back-leading”? Hope it’s nothing to do with the immortal ‘Back Pass’ and those giggling medics again…

Particularly found in the class situation, where they know what's coming next, back-leading is where the ladies actually lead the men through the move. Rather than let the man do the work.

**El Salsero Gringo** · 4th-March-2005, 05:50 PM

Don't know anything about Wise Ones, but it's not always a negative. If you ask a follower to show you a move that you don't know, then she will 'back-lead' you through it.

**Minnie M** · 4th-March-2005, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTramp

Particularly found in the class situation, where they know what's coming next, back-leading is where the ladies actually lead the men through the move. Rather than let the man do the work.

DianaS · 4th-March-2005, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTramp

Particularly found in the class situation, where they know what's coming next, back-leading is where the ladies actually lead the men through the move. Rather than let the man do .

them damage

**Allez-Cat** · 5th-March-2005, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

it's not always a negative.

Understood.

Thank you.

**Minnie M** · 5th-March-2005, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DianaS

them damage

woops - sorry Diana don't agree there. Far better to relax and let the man lead, far less damage than back leading.

I would only back lead with permission as (IMO) it is almost insulting

I do sometimes (beginners only) 'force' the lead into keep the beat. I find it so frustrating when they know all the moves but can't dance in time

TheTramp · 5th-March-2005, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

but it's not always a negative.

I'm not sure that I 100% agree with this... At least, I do agree, but I think that the occasions when back-leading is anything other than a negative are very few and far between.

If someone is struggling with a move, then letting him work it out will help him to actually get it, and understand how to lead it (hopefully). If the follower just does it for him, I'm not sure that it'll ever help, and the leader will probably do it with that follower, and then give up on the move when he can't lead it with the next follower who isn't back-leading.

If the leader works through it, and finally gets it, then they'll have a much better understanding of how to do the move. And if they haven't got the move by the end of the class, then the teacher is there to go through it with them until they do get it. At least, that's the theory, and most teachers I've encountered are too pleased to help out.

Hence, the only time I think that back-leading should be used, is if the leader doesn't get it, wants to get it, and the teacher isn't available to help out (for whatever reason).

Given that most intermediate ladies back-lead to at least some degree (ooh, I'm in trouble now!!

), I'd usually suggest that they should concentrate on improving their following, rather than worrying at all about back-leading. The teacher is there to show the move, not the follower

TheTramp · 5th-March-2005, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnie M

I would only back lead with permission as (IMO) it is almost insulting

There is that as well. Well said Minnie.

If I was struggling with a move, and not getting it, then I'm not sure that I'd want someone in the class pointing out my mistakes.

Also, I should have said that I have seen followers 'helping out'. But getting it wrong, which I guess really doesn't help the leader. Especially when he was almost getting the move before the follower decided to lead him astray...

On the other hand, being led astray.....

**El Salsero Gringo** · 6th-March-2005, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTramp

I'm not sure that I 100% agree with this... At least, I do agree, but I think that the occasions when back-leading is anything other than a negative are very few and far between.

I think I was being a bit terse in my reply. Let me propose a neutral definition of back-leading, which is "leading a move while dancing the follower's part".

And give two more examples where it could be used:

(Male) student to teacher: "I don't know how to dance the Waltz - can you back-lead me through it?"
Teacher to student: "Sure".

Alternatively, If I demonstrate a move on stage in a class, but I don't do it just how the teacher wants it done she'll back-lead me through it so it comes out right.

So yes, few and far between. But it's a valuable word, and I would hate it to become identified only with the perjorative usage that many people give it.

**Allez-Cat** · 7th-March-2005, 01:09 PM

[quote=TheTramp](ooh, I'm in trouble now!!

),QUOTE]

Well, it ain't materialised! Minds were obviously fixated on Blackpool...

To expand the thread marginally, a little (benign) mischief is fine (hence my allusion to ladies 'doing their thang'). But I would add that in my earlier days (that was last week) I was grateful for a spot of assistance from any source, provided it were offered in the right spirit - which I guess is what it's all about. However, there are those one comes across from time to time who assume they know best, and back-lead as a matter of course. For want of a better tag, I'll call them "bulldozers"! Given the over-riding (and very laudable) emphasis on courtesy, how would people recommend that "bulldozers" be dealt with?

**Minnie M** · 7th-March-2005, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez-Cat

.....how would people recommend that "bulldozers" be dealt with?

Don't dance with them

MartinHarper · 7th-March-2005, 02:21 PM

Is this in class or freestyle?

A thread on Why women anticipate moves has a few suggestions, some more humane than others.

Clive Long · 7th-March-2005, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTramp

<< snip >>
If someone is struggling with a move, then letting him work it out will help him to actually get it, and understand how to lead it (hopefully). If the follower just does it for him, I'm not sure that it'll ever help,

Firstly, this from me, isn't a "let's attack Trampy" post

(and he's quite able to look after himself).

I disagree with you. I have found certain situations when I don't get a move I just get more and more confused and stuck and agitated - very selfish because it unsettles my partner. I then appreciate some "clarification" from my partner - for the reason given by that good fellow, Trampy ..

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTramp

<< snip >>
Hence, the only time I think that back-leading should be used, is if the leader doesn't get it, wants to get it, and the teacher isn't available to help out (for whatever reason).

CRL

TheTramp · 7th-March-2005, 03:15 PM

To clarify (if it's possible when it comes to my posts.....)

The first situation is while during the class.

The second situation is after the class, if the person leading the move still hasn't, and can't, get it (and still wants to get it).

During the class, I believe that it's better for the woman to concentrate on improving her following and styling, and let the teacher worry about actually teaching the move, and the leader to learning how to do it...

Also, on plenty of occasions I've seen one of the followers 'show' (or back lead) the leader where he's going wrong, only to show him the wrong thing.

**El Salsero Gringo** · 7th-March-2005, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTramp

To clarify (if it's possible when it comes to my posts.....)

The first situation is while during the class.

The second situation is after the class, if the person leading the move still hasn't, and can't, get it (and still wants to get it).

During the class, I believe that it's better for the woman to concentrate on improving her following and styling, and let the teacher worry about actually teaching the move, and the leader to learning how to do it...

Also, on plenty of occasions I've seen one of the followers 'show' (or back lead) the leader where he's going wrong, only to show him the wrong thing.

I'm with Clive on this one. It's very hard for a woman to concentrate on her following if the move she's trying to follow is grinding to a halt for want of a correct arm-position, step or whatnot. Obviously it's a personal thing, but if I'm persistantly screwing up a move in the class I too would like to be put back on the right track.

As for being shown the wrong thing - well, free advice is worth what you pay for it. If the 'help' is wrong, or misleading then... so what? It was kind of my partner to try to give me the benefit of her wisdom and I (and my male colleagues) are smart enough to use it or ignore it at our discretion.

And on the subject of bulldozers: I've (just) made a resolution to take anyone who's uncomfortable to dance with to one side after and explain. Of course I shall ask permission to comment first, and be tactful and considerate. I'll let you know how many times I get a slap in the face in the next couple of weeks.

**Minnie M** · 7th-March-2005, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTramp

To clarify (if it's possible when it comes to my posts.....)

The first situation is while during the class.

The second situation is after the class, if the person leading the move still hasn't, and can't, get it (and still wants to get it).

During the class, I believe that it's better for the woman to concentrate on improving her following and styling, and let the teacher worry about actually teaching the move, and the leader to learning how to do it...

Also, on plenty of occasions I've seen one of the followers 'show' (or back lead) the leader where he's going wrong, only to show him the wrong thing.

I'm with Trampy on this one - it is better for the follower AND the lead to keep to their correct roles in the class

**Allez-Cat** · 7th-March-2005, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Don't dance with them

...again, anyway!

Quote:

A thread on Why women anticipate moves has a few suggestions, some more humane than others.

Thanks for that, but I can't access it - keep getting this dratted message about 'lack of privileges' or summat. Presumably that's because I'm a newcomer?

**David Bailey** · 15th-March-2005, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allez-Cat

Thanks for that, but I can't access it - keep getting this dratted message about 'lack of privileges' or summat. Presumably that's because I'm a newcomer?

No, works fine for me and I'm a really new newcomer. Sounds like it thought you weren't logged-in, maybe
try it again?

4th-March-2005, 05:40 PM	#1 (permalink)
Allez-Cat Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sprawling on a fence Posts: 68 Rep Power: 2 Reputation Total: 33	Back-leading?? Guidance from the Wise Ones please. Pre-empting, anticipation, ladies ‘doing their thang’, hi-jacking and ‘sabotage’: I understand these expressions. But what on earth is “back-leading”? Hope it’s nothing to do with the immortal ‘Back Pass’ and those giggling medics again…

4th-March-2005, 05:50 PM	#3 (permalink)
El Salsero Gringo Ceroc Teacher Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London Posts: 4,881 Rep Power: 4 Reputation Total: 2374	Re: Back-leading?? Don't know anything about Wise Ones, but it's not always a negative. If you ask a follower to show you a move that you don't know, then she will 'back-lead' you through it.

7th-March-2005, 01:09 PM	#11 (permalink)
Allez-Cat Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sprawling on a fence Posts: 68 Rep Power: 2 Reputation Total: 33	Re: Back-leading?? [quote=TheTramp](ooh, I'm in trouble now!! ),QUOTE] Well, it ain't materialised! Minds were obviously fixated on Blackpool... To expand the thread marginally, a little (benign) mischief is fine (hence my allusion to ladies 'doing their thang'). But I would add that in my earlier days (that was last week) I was grateful for a spot of assistance from any source, provided it were offered in the right spirit - which I guess is what it's all about. However, there are those one comes across from time to time who assume they know best, and back-lead as a matter of course. For want of a better tag, I'll call them "bulldozers"! Given the over-riding (and very laudable) emphasis on courtesy, how would people recommend that "bulldozers" be dealt with?

7th-March-2005, 02:21 PM	#13 (permalink)
MartinHarper Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Worcester, UK Posts: 4,094 Rep Power: 4 Reputation Total: 1828	Re: Back-leading?? Is this in class or freestyle? A thread on Why women anticipate moves has a few suggestions, some more humane than others.

7th-March-2005, 03:15 PM	#15 (permalink)
TheTramp The Forum Legend Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Dundee, Scotland Posts: 10,471 Rep Power: 6 Reputation Total: 1692	Re: Back-leading?? To clarify (if it's possible when it comes to my posts.....) The first situation is while during the class. The second situation is after the class, if the person leading the move still hasn't, and can't, get it (and still wants to get it). During the class, I believe that it's better for the woman to concentrate on improving her following and styling, and let the teacher worry about actually teaching the move, and the leader to learning how to do it... Also, on plenty of occasions I've seen one of the followers 'show' (or back lead) the leader where he's going wrong, only to show him the wrong thing.