Beginner Moves: Tips & advice - Page 2

MartinHarper · 17th-March-2005, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Yo-yos and Yo-yo Pushspins have always been taught both to have a flat hand-to-hand elbow-to-elbow position. [...] No doubt this has been discussed on the Forum before, eh Martin?

We've discussed yoyos a fair bit, such as this aptly named thread on the yo-yo, but I don't think we've talked about the difference between the yo-yo and the yo-yo push spin.

The tricky part isn't leading the yo-yo vs the yo-yo push spin - it's doing it clearly enough that my partner doesn't end up waving her right hand uselessly above her head.

**drathzel** · 17th-March-2005, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Small is good.

CJ · 17th-March-2005, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gadget

I like to know where my partner is through touch - I loose them if they spin off somewhere!

So THAT's your secret?!?!?!?!??!?!?

Dammit, when I dance, I can NEVER get loose women...

Whitebeard · 18th-March-2005, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidjames

Small is good.

Steps that is. (I'm sure Drathzel's a wee gem !!)

But I don't think I agree with that as a hard and fast rule. It may be that to onlookers and some partners I step out rather a lot, but I believe that's just a part of my overall style; particularly with slower numbers where this can give some dynamism and tension to the dance. (It's either that or venturing into the bluesy UCP area for which I'm not ready and willing.) With some partners this can give a nice fluid dance (provided I don't fluff something in trying to go beyond my basic moves) but there are some partners who give me real trouble. They just don't seem to want to move, or be capable of opening out, and instead bounce about to the beat (and half beat) - I suppose I frustrate them just as much as they frustrate me. Over time I guess we'll come to recognise that we're mutually incompatible and avoid each other except, unavoidably, in the line up. That's life.

It's nothing to do with physique, I'm fairly average, but have enjoyed dances with ladies of all sizes and shapes. One wee gem (another) is very vertically challenged, but she moves, and matches, my steps and leads ..... very responsively, gracefully, and stylishly too. This is the sort of partner who challenges me to interact and respond.

**David Bailey** · 18th-March-2005, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

But I don't think I agree with [small steps] as a hard and fast rule.

Well, actually, neither do I, for experienced dancers - I know my feet have a life of their own, even I don't know where they're going next

To clarify, I believe "small steps are good when learning". Once you're comfortable with the moves, of course, anything goes.

**Gadget** · 18th-March-2005, 08:33 AM

I think that the problem with "big steps" is that it 'forces' the dancers to bend at the waist and stretch to do some moves: not looking good, harder to lead and "mistakes" are more obvious.
By saying "take small steps", you are just maintaining a decent distance where all the moves can be done keeping relativly upright with good posture.

So it's not so much the size of the steps, but the controll (& awareness) of distance.

**David Bailey** · 18th-March-2005, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gadget

So it's not so much the size of the steps, but the controll (& awareness) of distance.

OK, I'll say it: "It's not the size, it's what you do with it that counts"
(come on, you know you were thinking it

)

<serious>Yes, but that's a bit too complex a concept for someone starting out - "keep it small" is a nice easy-to-remember slogan. And the tread title is " Beginner Moves: Tips & advice"</serious>

Another tip along that line: look at your partner (the face). It's not helpful to anyone if you're looking at your or your partner's feet, or indeed any other body part

**Lou** · 18th-March-2005, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJames

It's not helpful to anyone if you're looking at your or your partner's feet

Pah. How else can you admire their shoes?

**Gadget** · 18th-March-2005, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Yes, but that's a bit too complex a concept for someone starting out - "keep it small" is a nice easy-to-remember slogan. And the tread title is " Beginner Moves: Tips & advice"

It is. The aim was to offer an explination as to why the advice should be followed and what it will do -
I don't want to know, "keep it small","bend your knees","look into her face","smile","don't force her"... I want to know why I should keep it small, how bending the knees will help, why I should stare into her eyes, why my facial expression matters,...
{I would make a rubbish soldier: I do not follow orders or commands very well

}

**David Bailey** · 18th-March-2005, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gadget

It is. The aim was to offer an explination as to why the advice should be followed and what it will do -
I don't want to know, "keep it small","bend your knees","look into her face","smile","don't force her"... I want to know why I should keep it small, how bending the knees will help, why I should stare into her eyes, why my facial expression matters,...
{I would make a rubbish soldier: I do not follow orders or commands very well

}

Oh, officer material, I'd say

But even officers have to go through basic training - and you only get to know why, typically, at a later date. In ceroc terms, if you want to know the "why do it this way?", you need to spend more money on a workshop

It's certainly not ideal, but it's a business - the more you pay, the better-quality instructions you get. Or you can use this forum of course

**ducasi** · 19th-March-2005, 01:36 PM

Thanks for the continuing advice...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ducasi

Our teacher and taxi dancers have emphasised stepping back on the left a lot. They must want us to do that for some reason.

I never realised there was so much to the "step back". I was just stepping back!

But sorry, it wasn't the initial step back I was referring to (and sorry that it got lost in my abbreviated quoting.) I was meaning when you're in the basket, you and your partner step back together, we're supposed to have mirror-image legs, so I've stepped back on my left, and my partner has stepped back on her right. I guess it looks better than the alternatives.

Quote:

Thanks guys! I guess what I really need is practice. Just have to find someone who's willing to work with me... Hmmm...

Any offers?

**drathzel** · 19th-March-2005, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ducasi

But sorry, it wasn't the initial step back I was referring to (and sorry that it got lost in my abbreviated quoting.) I was meaning when you're in the basket, you and your partner step back together, we're supposed to have mirror-image legs, so I've stepped back on my left, and my partner has stepped back on her right. I guess it looks better than the alternatives.

when i dance as a man i step back the same way as i do when i am dancing a female....ie on right i think its part habit and part comfort! i feel that i have a better lead when i step back the same way as my follow!

Whitebeard · 19th-March-2005, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ducasi

But sorry, it wasn't the initial step back I was referring to (and sorry that it got lost in my abbreviated quoting.) I was meaning when you're in the basket ....

And in the similar situation in the First Move. A subject I brought up on the forum some time ago when I noted that all the teachers I've seen demonstrating (as opposed to stepping through) in fact take two steps back; first right, then left.

I always felt some awkwardness stepping back with the left only and the reason, I believe, is that my hips want to turn anti-clockwise following the leg, but, at the same time, my left arm is moving right to twist the lady clockwise and my upper body also wants to go in that direction. Conflict !!

So I've tried to retrain myself to take two steps back in the way the teachers do (when they're not teaching). When I get it right the move flows much more smoothly. On the first step back, with the right foot, my whole body is twisting to the right in unison with the lady and there is no conflict. Trying to analyse it I think the second step back with the left is not a full step in that, although my forefoot touches down, there is no actual transfer of weight. It's more of a flick backwards with no corresponding rotation of the hips before stepping forward with that left foot in preparation to untwist the lady and go for the clockwise turn.

Having said that, in some situations I find myself not stepping at all and sort of swaying into the twisting movement with flexing knees following the rythm. And that seems to work quite well ..... all credit to the ladies.

I just hope my clock's going round the right way !!

Whitebeard · 19th-March-2005, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJames

I know my feet have a life of their own ....

I can identify with that ;-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Another tip along that line: look at your partner (the face).

At appropriate moments, yes. But I can think of one guy whose constant gaze, if I were his partner, I would find very intimidating.

In reality, I think most of us constantly scan around to look for free space, avoid collisions, wink at friends, eye up the talent ?, go blank as we wallow in the music or wonder what on earth to do next, etc., etc.

MartinHarper · 20th-March-2005, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJames

It's not helpful to anyone if you're looking at your or your partner's feet.

When I started dancing, I had a very poor level of "body awareness", which I suspect is quite common amongst beginner dancers. As such, looking at my feet helped me avoid tangling them up. I still look at my feet whenever I'm learning or practicing something new.

I still regularly look at my partner's feet/legs (in open position), for a couple of reasons. Firstly, she's often doing extremely cool things with them, and I don't want to miss out. Secondly, I'm not a good enough leader to judge where her body weight is solely through the hand connection.

MartinHarper · 20th-March-2005, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

I always felt some awkwardness stepping back with the left only and the reason, I believe, is that my hips want to turn anti-clockwise following the leg, but, at the same time, my left arm is moving right to twist the lady clockwise and my upper body also wants to go in that direction. Conflict !!

As an experiment, you might want to try out what DavidB does - in a thread on the first move, he said that he normally steps back right. That means there's no conflict between upper and lower body at all.

**El Salsero Gringo** · 20th-March-2005, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

And in the similar situation in the First Move. A subject I brought up on the forum some time ago when I noted that all the teachers I've seen demonstrating (as opposed to stepping through) in fact take two steps back; first right, then left.

I always felt some awkwardness stepping back with the left only and the reason, I believe, is that my hips want to turn anti-clockwise following the leg, but, at the same time, my left arm is moving right to twist the lady clockwise and my upper body also wants to go in that direction. Conflict !!

So I've tried to retrain myself to take two steps back in the way the teachers do (when they're not teaching). When I get it right the move flows much more smoothly. On the first step back, with the right foot, my whole body is twisting to the right in unison with the lady and there is no conflict. Trying to analyse it I think the second step back with the left is not a full step in that, although my forefoot touches down, there is no actual transfer of weight. It's more of a flick backwards with no corresponding rotation of the hips before stepping forward with that left foot in preparation to untwist the lady and go for the clockwise turn.

Having said that, in some situations I find myself not stepping at all and sort of swaying into the twisting movement with flexing knees following the rythm. And that seems to work quite well ..... all credit to the ladies.

I just hope my clock's going round the right way !!

With the greatest of respect to Whitebeard I wouldn't recommend to anyone (and certainly not in a thread entitled "Beginner Moves: tips & advice") to take two steps back in a first move, or to step back with anything other than the outside foot. At least, not until they had the regular First Move sussed and were comfortable with the 'conflict' of hips going one way, shoulders another. I've never seen a Ceroc teacher dance it other than stepping back on the left foot.

DavidB might prefer to step back on his right, but I bet you a pound to a penny that he could at a pinch step back, forward, left, right, up or down or any combination thereof.

Just a humble opinion from me, of course - there's no need to take the blindest bit of notice.

**Gadget** · 20th-March-2005, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

With the greatest of respect to Whitebeard I wouldn't recommend to anyone (and certainly not in a thread entitled "Beginner Moves: tips & advice") to take two steps back in a first move, or to step back with anything other than the outside foot.

I have heard it taught from stage to step back with either foot. My preference is to mimic rather than match the lady bacause it is easier and 'flows' better. The only reason that I would [u]not[/i] recommend it for a beginner is that it is a bit more 'intimate' and if mucked up could lead to more embarasment than simply screwing up a move. (well, that and you should always do what the teacher is leading from the stage - even if you would n

18th-March-2005, 08:33 AM	#26 (permalink)
Gadget Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Cruden Bay (Aberdeen) Posts: 6,157 Status: Gigalo for hire Rep Power: 6 Rep.: 1527	Re: Beginner Moves: Tips & advice I think that the problem with "big steps" is that it 'forces' the dancers to bend at the waist and stretch to do some moves: not looking good, harder to lead and "mistakes" are more obvious. By saying "take small steps", you are just maintaining a decent distance where all the moves can be done keeping relativly upright with good posture. So it's not so much the size of the steps, but the controll (& awareness) of distance. __________________ I used to be an angel, you know with halo and those wings; Now that i'm a devil, my mind's on other things... My feathers turned to ash, and my harp has broke in two; I took uppon myself, to have a dance with you... ¤ TheEvolutionOfMJ ¤ SensualDancing ¤ TechniquesOfLeading ¤ MarkOfaGoodTeacher ¤ Style ¤ Moves,moves,moves ¤ MoveMap ¤ DanceingTest ¤ DanceFloorSlease ¤