Beginner Moves: Tips & advice

[El Salsero Gringo]

Isn't the whole point of learning to dance about training your body to find natural what previously felt awkward, or off-balance?

The fact that a dance move doesn't feel right when done in the suggested manner would motivate me to practice it that way until it *did* feel right - not to change the steps!

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Isn't the whole point of learning to dance about training your body to find natural what previously felt awkward, or off-balance?

The fact that a dance move doesn't feel right when done in the suggested manner would motivate me to practice it that way until it *did* feel right - not to change the steps!

? I would say not - I think that it's +80%* technique, -20% 'conditioning'. Get the movement, timing and pressure right, then it won't feel awkward or off-balance.

The fact that a move dosn't feel right when done suggests to me that I'm not doing it right, not that I just need to do it again and again untill it feels right: that's how to ingrain bad habbits. "Practice" to improve is not repeating something in *Exactly* the same way; it's making minor adjustments on every repetition.

(*Actually I think that it's closer to 95%, but enough people keep telling me about 'muscle memory' that I have conseeded a little bit)

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Gadget

? I would say not - I think that it's +80%* technique, -20% 'conditioning'. Get the movement, timing and pressure right, then it won't feel awkward or off-balance.

The fact that a move dosn't feel right when done suggests to me that I'm not doing it right, not that I just need to do it again and again untill it feels right: that's how to ingrain bad habbits. "Practice" to improve is not repeating something in *Exactly* the same way; it's making minor adjustments on every repetition.

(*Actually I think that it's closer to 95%, but enough people keep telling me about 'muscle memory' that I have conseeded a little bit)

We'll agree to differ on that then. If I do a First-move it now feels totally natural to me to step back with the outside foot, and not to take a second step. The fact that I worked hard practicing to make it feel natural - whereas for Clive and Whitebeard it still feels 'wrong' - suggests that it's not the move itself that's awkward.

I also think you're 100% wrong to suggest that correct technique comes naturally, and if something initially awkward needs repetition to make it feel 'right' then you must be ingraining bad habits. For demanding forms of dance correct technique comes only after years of training. There's no way you can look at ballet dancer en pointe and say that's a natural position for her foot!

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

- whereas for Clive and Whitebeard it still feels 'wrong' - suggests that it's not the move itself that's awkward.

No, it's not the move; it's the execution of the move. In that execution, the technique is lacking.

I also think you're 100% wrong to suggest that correct technique comes naturally,

I said that? I just said that repetiton of the wrong technique untill it feels 'right' does not make the move correct. Every repetition done, if done in an identical way, will lead to you always doing it that way. Every repetition needs to be driven towards improving on the last repetion; that improvement is developing technique. Once the technique is spot on (ha!) repetition will ingrain it.

For demanding forms of dance correct technique comes only after years of training. There's no way you can look at ballet dancer en pointe and say that's a natural position for her foot!

"Natural position"? that's a very ambiguous term. Technique comes from years of training - not simply years of practice. Ballet teachers rarely say "yes, perfect": they say "yes; that was OK - but this time..." or "No; do it again" {<- hearsay}

All I am saying is that practice is only any good if you are not simply repeating the same thing again and again untill it feels "right".

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Gadget

No, it's not the move; it's the execution of the move. In that execution, the technique is lacking.

No it's not the execution. Or the move. It's the executor's brain. The initial execution of even the most perfect technique still won't feel 'right'. Only repetition of correct technique will make correct technique feel right. (Of course, repetition of incorrect technique will also mke that feel right - but that's why we have teachers - to show us and help us practice the correct technique.)

Originally Posted by Gadget

Every repetition done, if done in an identical way, will lead to you always doing it that way.

Agreed. That's why repeating the correct technique is a good idea. If you are a follower of the dread god Ceroc then the correct technique for a Ceroc First Move is to step back on the outside leg. That's why it's suggested to practice stepping back on the outside leg, and not the inside. Even if it feels 'wrong'.

Originally Posted by Gadget

I said that?

This is what you said, and what I take issue with:

Originally Posted by Gadget

The fact that a move dosn't feel right when done suggests to me that I'm not doing it right, not that I just need to do it again and again untill it feels right:

It doesn't suggest anything of the sort. Whether you were doing it correctly or incorrectly, if it were new to your body it would still feel 'wrong'.

Originally Posted by Gadget

All I am saying is that practice is only any good if you are not simply repeating the same thing again and again untill it feels "right".

You're off on a tangent again. Learn the correct technique - whatever it may be - which might very well feel awkward, off balance, or 'conflicted' when first you try it. Then practice it until it no longer feels awkward, off balance or conflicted.


The reason it's a point worth arguing is because in a thread for beginners I picked up a subtle suggestion that if a move didn't feel right to a newbie, they should just rework it until it did - and blow the instructions. That's one point of view, but certainly not the only one.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

The initial execution of even the most perfect technique still won't feel 'right'.

Even more, some moves are meant to feel "wrong" - unnatural turns, cross-body leads, that sort of thing. That's why they're called unnatural. If you just do what feels right, you're back to the last days of disco.

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

If you are a follower of the dread god Ceroc

That sounds like a good T-shirt idea to me

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Some moves are meant to feel "wrong"

Care to give any examples? You talk about "unnatural turns, cross-body leads", but I'm not entirely sure what those things mean within MJ. :-(

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Even more, some moves are meant to feel "wrong" - unnatural turns, cross-body leads, that sort of thing. That's why they're called unnatural. If you just do what feels right, you're back to the last days of disco.

I don't think it's a good idea to introduce a new meaning of unnatural here - like an 'un'-natural turn in Ballroom. There's nothing unnatural-feeling about a cross-body lead once you've practiced it enough. It's no harder or more awkward than a First Move.

(Actually, I agree with Gadget - it was such an ambiguous word to use that it was bound to start an OT argument - sorry.)

Originally Posted by DavidJames

That sounds like a good T-shirt idea to me

It was a typo - I meant 'great' but initially got 'gread' instead.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Care to give any examples? You talk about "unnatural turns, cross-body leads", but I'm not entirely sure what those things mean within MJ. :-(

I'll try, but I'm useless at trying to explain these things... An "unnatural turn", by definition, feels "wrong" - it's when you naturally want to turn yourself or your follower one way (typically, an anti-cockwise turn), but should turn the other way instead. Hmmm, that's probably pretty obvious and not very helpful...

OK, as an MJ example, I learnt a move a few weeks ago called the Columbian, a travelling grapevine-y move where you both double-time twist along, facing each other, for a few steps - MJ version of a Pachanga style, basically. But for one of the steps, both partners move one foot behind the other, rather than the natural instinct to move in front (told you I was bad at explaining). Anyway, I'd call that part an unnatural move - it didn't come easily, and I had to work at doing the correct thing. Having said that, yes, "unnatural" is probably a poor description.

I won't even try to describe a cross-body lead - I'm sure Senor ESG can make a good job of it tho.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

It was a typo - I meant 'great' but initially got 'gread' instead.

Or "dread" even. Hell, I like the idea of a dread god of Ceroc, staring down at us and smiting us for daring to do our own thing
But I wouldn't dream of calling Mr Ellard dread-ful

[Whitebeard]

Originally Posted by el salsero gringo

With the greatest of respect to Whitebeard I wouldn't recommend to anyone (and certainly not in a thread entitled "Beginner Moves: tips & advice") to take two steps back in a first move, or to step back with anything other than the outside foot.

I wasn't recommending, merely observing, and drawing conclusions from that.

I find it very strange that no-one else seems to have noticed that at least some teachers when demonstrating a routine containing a First Move or a Basket take two steps back when twisting the lady to the right on beat 3. But then, in another context, another sphere of activity, I've noticed that most people only see what they been led to expect to see. They follow; like sheep (no disrespect to Sheepman - I'd love to know how you came up with that!!).

Take yourself along to www.danceyourselfdizzy.com and navigate through "Teach me to dance On-line now" to step 6 "The moves" and click on the "Basket". The description of the move on beat 3 does indeed, as Ceroc does, invite we, the lead, to "step back on either foot". But, click on "View the video" (it'only 300kb for wmv and doesn't take long even on dial-up).

Watch it a couple of times - how does he (the leader) step back on beat three ??

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Whether you were doing it correctly or incorrectly, if it were new to your body it would still feel 'wrong'.

? I dissagree - it may feel 'unusual' or 'different' - but should not go against the grain or feel 'wrong' in any way. If you look back to my post, I specifically said that if I felt something wrong, it would be because I was doing it wrong. Technique.

It took me months to get an elbow roll not feeling 'wrong' - I was timing the move wrong and having my body do more work than my arm. The improvement has come from practice and development of technique, not multiple repetitions of the same thing. (and it still needs a bit of work coming out of it smoothly)

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

I'll try, but I'm useless at trying to explain these things... An "unnatural turn", by definition, feels "wrong" - it's when you naturally want to turn yourself or your follower one way (typically, an anti-cockwise turn), but should turn the other way instead. Hmmm, that's probably pretty obvious and not very helpful...

OK, as an MJ example, I learnt a move a few weeks ago called the Columbian, a travelling grapevine-y move where you both double-time twist along, facing each other, for a few steps - MJ version of a Pachanga style, basically. But for one of the steps, both partners move one foot behind the other, rather than the natural instinct to move in front (told you I was bad at explaining). Anyway, I'd call that part an unnatural move - it didn't come easily, and I had to work at doing the correct thing. Having said that, yes, "unnatural" is probably a poor description.

I won't even try to describe a cross-body lead - I'm sure Senor ESG can make a good job of it tho.

David, I think the First Move Columbian is a very good example of something that feels very odd - until you practice it enough times (with correct technique - thank you Gadget) for it to feel right. If you learnt it a little while ago at Whetstone then it was I who was demoing the man's part for you. I must have spent the best part of 20 minutes practicing it with Zebra Woman this Saturday, and another 20 minutes tonight with various partners. I figure it's going to be a couple of months before it feels anything like natural to lead in freestyle.

As for describing a cross-body lead? I'm afraid I have to refuse the challenge, but there are some good videos of it here.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

I wasn't recommending, merely observing, and drawing conclusions from that.

Point conceeded, and it's worth bringing up for discussion. But, I did feel that a still small voice from someone who freestyles the move as dictated might be useful.

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

I find it very strange that no-one else seems to have noticed that at least some teachers when demonstrating a routine containing a First Move or a Basket take two steps back when twisting the lady to the right on beat 3. But then, in another context, another sphere of activity, I've noticed that most people only see what they been led to expect to see. They follow; like sheep (no disrespect to Sheepman - I'd love to know how you came up with that!!).

Credit to your observational skills. I shall watch as many Ceroc teachers as I can in the near future. I checked my own dancing tonight and made sure that there was no difficulty with stepping back only on the left leg though. It does work as a move, honest!

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

Take yourself along to www.danceyourselfdizzy.com and navigate through "Teach me to dance On-line now" to step 6 "The moves" and click on the "Basket". The description of the move on beat 3 does indeed, as Ceroc does, invite we, the lead, to "step back on either foot". But, click on "View the video" (it'only 300kb for wmv and doesn't take long even on dial-up).

Watch it a couple of times - how does he (the leader) step back on beat three ??

I can't find the video (the spot where the link should be appears to say "coming soon") - can you PM me the url?

Edited to say - sorry, I was looking for the First Move video...

OK. Having watched the Basket video carefully, his right foot slips back a couple of inches as the left foot steps forward - other than that I can't see a second step.

There's also another possible explanation for what you see as a second step. If you do the rock-step (step-back) with full weight transfer to the back foot (as you should) it's easy to lift the front foot a touch. In fact in some schools of dance lifting the front foot on a rock-step is recommended to ensure full weight on the back foot. If the front foot lifts, and isn't replaced in exactly the same spot that might be interpreted as a step?

By the way - his footwork as a demonstrator is lousy in another area - count the steps at the very start of the move - there's a very odd left-right-left shuffle as he offers his second hand....

[El Salsero Gringo]

Whitebeard,

OK, I've watched that video another couple of dozen times (that poor man, what did he do to deserve this...?)

You're absolutely right - he does step back twice - first on the right foot (a half-beat ahead), then on the left.

For the little that it's worth, my opinion is that this chap's footwork is pants. And doubly so because it's in a demonstration video.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

If you learnt it a little while ago at Whetstone then it was I who was demoing the man's part for you.

Yep, that's the baby. Nice move...

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

I must have spent the best part of 20 minutes practicing it with Zebra Woman this Saturday

That's your story...