Getting newcomers past the second night

[frodo]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

This is piffle too.
Beginner men aren't paying any attention to the other blokes in the class. If they've gone with a mate and are next to them in the class then maybe they'll be aware of how one another is getting on, purely from a competitive point of view.

...

I think they are if they cannot see the teacher(s) well.

[DavidY]

Originally Posted by John S

For years, every newcomer to Ceroc has filled out a form with personal details, contact numbers etc. Taken together, this would have formed an enormous database of information about people who at one point in their lives had expressed an interest in learning to dance. ~SNIP~ In Scotland our Ceroc cards are now read into a PC (or maybe a Mac, sorry Franck!) when we arrive at the venue, so a database will be built up over time which will allow analysis and follow-up messages to be sent etc. It will be interesting to see if/how it is used, and if it's worthwhile.

Note to self - can't remember whether or not the form I filled in allows my personal information to be given/sold to third parties - must check next time, as I don't want that!

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that under the Data Protection Act you have the right to ask Ceroc what personal information they hold on you (for a small fee).

In Ceroc Central (as bigdjiver says) they dilligently collect everyone's membership numbers at every class, so presumably they have a record of everywhere I've danced for the last few years.

[Whitebeard]

Originally Posted by frodo

I think they are if they cannot see the teacher(s) well.

(Watch other participants that is.) That was certainly true of me in the intermediate class tonight. But I'm not intimidated, I'm grateful if I can spot someone who apparently knows what he's doing whilst my back is to the stage or the view blocked. So, yes, that might mean the piffle is pretty utter !!!

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by frodo

I think they are if they cannot see the teacher(s) well.

From a follower's point of view - in my first few classes I was concentrating on learning the moves, interacting with my partner, moving the right number of places in the rotation... and yes, if I was at the back and couldn't see the teacher I might pay more attention to someone nearby who seemed to be more experienced and doing the move correctly. But I wouldn't feel intimidated if there were other experienced followers there. There was enough to concentrate on!

But in the freestyle after the beginner class, I think this is where more experienced dancers who are present would need to be careful not to intimidate - easily done though, stick to simple moves.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Lynn

But in the freestyle after the beginner class, I think this is where more experienced dancers who are present would need to be careful not to intimidate - easily done though, stick to simple moves.

Do you mean when dancing with the beginner (in which case I would agree), or when dancing with one another (in which case I wouldn't)?

[Andy McGregor]

I really can't see beginners being intimidated by good dancers ever happens or has any affect on beginners falure to return to MJ. IMHO beginners need to see good dancers to be inspired to learn more. They're not going to stop coming to the classes because they're standing next to a good dancer in the line.

IMHO there are many reasons people drop out of MJ after a few weeks. Some of them are probably to do with the dancing or the way it's organised. Some of the reasons are related to external factors which the organiser has no control over - such as family, relationships, health, work, other commitments, etc, etc. What we can be sure of is that the forumula for Ceroc works and keeps most classes busy. To guess at reasons and tinker with this winning formula to get people to stay past the second night would be a mistake: especially if those reasons are nothing to do with the class/dance/format/people/etc.

Nigel Anderson once told me that he thinks 10% retention of beginners is good. I've no idea if this is the norm but I've found this figure is right for big classes - but smaller classes have a much higher retention rate But I've only got one big class and 2 small ones so I could be completely wrong.

Thinking about it, the retention rate for my small classes is closer to 50%. The major difference between the big and small classes is time with the teacher - maybe new people would like more time with the teacher, or would stay if they got some.

[Almost an Angel]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

Nigel Anderson once told me that he thinks 10% retention of beginners is good. I've no idea if this is the norm but I've found this figure is right for big classes - but smaller classes have a much higher retention rate But I've only got one big class and 2 small ones so I could be completely wrong.

Thinking about it, the retention rate for my small classes is closer to 50%. The major difference between the big and small classes is time with the teacher - maybe new people would like more time with the teacher, or would stay if they got some.

I agree Andy, I've been helping out at a fairly new venue and the classes are fairly small despite the hall having a fab floor.

We have retained a high proportion of the beginners who have started out and until you mentioned it I didn't think about how we had managed to retain them, offering a consolidation or repeat class and spending time both dancing and talking with them encouraging them obviously helps, but being able to spend time dancing with the teacher and getting positive feedback as well as hints and tips from them is probably a major factor.

Angel xx

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

What we can be sure of is that the forumula for Ceroc works and keeps most classes busy. To guess at reasons and tinker with this winning formula to get people to stay past the second night would be a mistake: especially if those reasons are nothing to do with the class/dance/format/people/etc.

Totally - not broke, don't fix it. The whole thread title assume there's a problem with the format, that can be fixed, and I'm not seeing it. Ceroc's not exactly fading away, so they're clearing doing something right. Some people like MJ, some don't.

Having said that, life is change, and things can always be tinkered with. The last big format-tinkering I recall was to have a repeat beginner's class by the taxi-dancers a few years ago - that seemed to be a good idea (for everyone but the taxi-dancers ). Maybe there's some room for specifying the "intimidation level" for the post-beginner-class session, but I haven't heard anyone say they're intimidated by good dancers, so I'm sceptical on that one.

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

but I haven't heard anyone say they're intimidated by good dancers, so I'm sceptical on that one.

I'm still slightly intimidated by Lorna {} but it dosn't stop me dancing with her. The only reason I'm not that intimidated by Lisa is because I danced with her before she 'earned her stripes'. Slighty intimidated by LillyB - but again, won't stop me dancing with her if I get a chance. Same with a few others - I can definetly understand the intimidation factor.

It took me a long time to start asking anyone who I considered 'good' for a dance - I didn't enjoy it as much as relative novices; even those who I had danced with when they were beginners and improved lots. Many reasons... Living up to my expectations of what they want from a dance: Less 'mistakes' to improvise from: More appreciation of a nice dance: Less anticipation of what I was doing: etc.

[JoC]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

The whole thread title assume there's a problem with the format, that can be fixed, and I'm not seeing it. Ceroc's not exactly fading away, so they're clearing doing something right. Some people like MJ, some don't.

I'll have to be more careful with any future thread titles...didn't mean that! I love the whole format of the evenings, it's one of the major factors that keeps me coming back week after week.

I guess I have to concede that not everybody loves to do the same things that I do. You can lead a horse to the dancefloor but you can't make it jive huh?

I suppose I was wondering if night number 2 was the critical one, if ever I had a slightly wobbly night it was the second. For me though, desire to be able to join in was obviously enough to oversome the anxiety, shyness, lack of confidence, despair at not being able to 'do it' already etc (poor little beginner boo hoo)... I guess you can't really do much other than offer words of encouragement as a fellow punter.

(Incidentally being looked after by the taxi dancers especially the first few weeks was really important to me (Thanks John S! )while I was building up courage to ask for dances, and slowly getting to know one or two faces.)

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by JoC

..I suppose I was wondering if night number 2 was the critical one...

There is no one-size-fits-all "critical" one for the attendees. It is like life - any day may be your last. For the organisers the critical number of attendances is enough to so fire the average attendees enthusiasm and confidence that they bring in enough new members to cover the losses.

The mathematics of this involve exponentials and short periods of time. Here .1% soon makes a discernable difference. There is no way, with all of the factors involved, that we can measure such small changes, or the individual results of small changes amongst many. Like Andy says, if it works don't fix it is a good starting point. Change, however, is inevitable. Change also adds interest. As the population of dancers develops they change, and change also comes in from outside. A program such as "Strictly Dance fever", and the ongoing increase in public awareness of health issues are all background factors working in favour of dance at the moment. We may be faced with a surge in the dance population that seeks a more active and adventurous form of dance than some of us are used to.

The way forward is for the organisations to make carefully considered changes in isolation, and have the metrics in place to accurately gauge the results. They should be able identify to modify quickly policies that are not working, and propogate the ones that are.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

Do you mean when dancing with the beginner (in which case I would agree), or when dancing with one another (in which case I wouldn't)?

In general freestyle - I mean dancing with the beginners. But if there is a freestyle time immediately after the beginners class, aimed at encouraging beginners to practice, and there were loads of experienced dancers doing more 'advanced' moves, then beginners standing round the edge might feel a bit intimidated to get up themselves. They might think they have to be 'that good' to freestyle. (It tends to be intermediate dancers who do that anyway.) I just think, especially for the guys, its the first few attempts at freestyle that are the scariest bit and if they don't develop confidence to freestyle (and find out its OK to get moves wrong!) they might be less inclined to come back.

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

The way forward is for the organisations to make carefully considered changes in isolation, and have the metrics in place to accurately gauge the results. They should be able identify to modify quickly policies that are not working, and propogate the ones that are.

[Dilbert]Bingo, BigD[/Dilbert] Though I think proactively maximizing synergies is the true paradigm...

[Lynn]

From what I have seen, its week one where people come along to try it, and don't come back if they feel its not for them. If they come back a second week then I tend to think they have enjoyed it and there are other reasons why they don't come back again after that, more likely outside reasons - eg to do with work, family, time, other interests etc.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Lynn

But if there is a freestyle time immediately after the beginners class, aimed at encouraging beginners to practice, and there were loads of experienced dancers doing more 'advanced' moves, then beginners standing round the edge might feel a bit intimidated to get up themselves. They might think they have to be 'that good' to freestyle.

I can see some sense in making a distinction between the general later-on freestyle, and the brief one between the classes.

I just think, especially for the guys, its the first few attempts at freestyle that are the scariest bit

Definitely true.

and if they don't develop confidence to freestyle (and find out its OK to get moves wrong!) they might be less inclined to come back.

Possibly true in some cases, but I suspect this is putting the cart before the horse a little.

Looking back to when I was in that not-yet-able-to-freestyle phase, and more recently, talking to lots of beginner guys as a taxi, I think that most of them assume that they won't be capable of freestyling (even the routine, other than with a taxi dancer maybe) on their first night.

And in fact, mostly they're right - and there's no shame whatsoever in that, and it doesn't stop me encouraging them not to go home after the review class, and make sure they get a dance with one of the female taxis.

Occasionally you get guys that are able to get through the routine on their own on the first night, but I'd say that's something of a rarity - they have far more to cope with in those early stages than the girls do.

If they make it back the following week then they are already pretty capable of the most important thing at the beginning, which is carrying on despite feeling like a complete dork. I wasn't - I didn't come back after my first class for six months, and not for another six months after my next one - more fool me.

But I wouldn't have gone back ever had I not seen a few really good dancers, and had a desire to be able to do that. I think the way to get newbies over the initial hurdles is to give them huge amounts of encouragement that feeling dorky is completely normal, but it passes.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

... feeling dorky is completely normal, but it passes.

"Master?"

"Yes, child?"

"When will I cease to feel like a dork, and start feeling like a dancer?"

"Child, you will no longer feel like a dork when you realise that dork-nature is is the Yin to the Yang of dance."

"Master, you mean that we cannot have one without the other? That each shapes and defines it's complement?"

"You excel in the speed of your thought. Now go, Child, and return when you can tell me the number of Ceroc First-Moves that exist in the universe."

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

"Child, you will no longer feel like a dork when you realise that dork-nature is is the Yin to the Yang of dance."

Very good.

And an excellent point. I still frequently feel like a dork on the dancefloor, but it doesn't bother me any more, because I know that it goes with the territory of learning, experimenting, improving.

Actually, it does bother me . But it no longer bothers me that it bothers me.

Er...

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

Very good.

And an excellent point. I still frequently feel like a dork on the dancefloor, but it doesn't bother me any more, because I know that it goes with the territory of learning, experimenting, improving.

Actually, it does bother me . But it no longer bothers me that it bothers me.

Er...

Years ago I was on a management development course where we were told to make a fool out of ourselves once every day (I needed to cut down to achieve this objective ). Dance provides us with many opportunities to make a fool out of ourselves. I think it's essential that we're prepared to risk looking foolish in our quest to improve. And when you get really good you can look foolish by wearing a hat or waistcoat ...

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by JoC

I suppose I was wondering if night number 2 was the critical one, if ever I had a slightly wobbly night it was the second.

Well, I'm glad you carried on - and it's a good thread
Hmmm... good question, is there a critical night? I'd always assumed it was the first night; that's where I guessed most people would drop out. If you've come twice, you know what to expect, so I'd think that the drop-off rate is very much less at that point. For me, the intimidating part was seeing freestyle before seeing the class, I never thought I'd be able to do "that sort of thing", so it put me off for a year or more. But I got sucked back in...