Getting newcomers past the second night

[JoC]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

I'd always assumed it was the first night; that's where I guessed most people would drop out. If you've come twice, you know what to expect, so I'd think that the drop-off rate is very much less at that point.

You're probably right, but I think there's a real extra high the first night for some people, the novelty factor, maybe they came along with a group of friends who all thought they'd have go, beginner friendly types and the taxi's make a real point of looking after you etc...there's lots of 'wow'ing as you take in the sights and sounds. Then second night, you've maybe braved coming back on your own, you don't have the support of the pals that came along with the first night because it didn't grab them enough, or you're trying a different venue, they couldn't make it etc. You start seriously trying to pay attention and learn and it suddenly gets trickier, and it looks kind of like everyone knows eachother... It's just the nature of starting anything new I guess.

Of course if you keep taking the medicine, you get the highs over and over!Just when you think you've had the best night and all that...

By the way somebody mentioned a point earlier about beginners leaving early. I left a bit early for a few weeks, and my reason was initially, that I saw others leaving and thought the evenings activities must be drawing to a close, I didn't realise what time the dancing went on until.

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

Years ago I was on a management development course where we were told to make a fool out of ourselves once every day ...

It is my policy, when dancing with a raw beginner, to sometimes make myself look foolish if she is very uptight. It is a great cure for the "what is he thinking of my ability" syndrome. After that, they do not care.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

.Looking back to when I was in that not-yet-able-to-freestyle phase, and more recently, talking to lots of beginner guys as a taxi, I think that most of them assume that they won't be capable of freestyling (even the routine, other than with a taxi dancer maybe) on their first night.

A lot of those who came to classes here (when there were classes here!) also had done some salsa, so I suppose that helped them with confidence to try to put the moves together. Last month we had a new guy, we showed him a couple of moves (in our informal and probably not very good style of teaching one another ) and he was putting them together in freestyle by himself straight away... (I'm hoping he comes back! ) but that was unusual

Originally Posted by ChrisA

But I wouldn't have gone back ever had I not seen a few really good dancers, and had a desire to be able to do that.

I was inspired to want to learn MJ after the first demo I saw, before I had even had one class. I just thought, I want to learn how to do that!

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by JoC

You're probably right

Hey, there's always a first time
Good points about the second night - certainly would apply to some people. And it does make me curious - do any of the various teachers out there have any dropoff figures?

[Russell Saxby]

Sometimes it is just out of our control.. to cut a long story short.

A youngish lady who has been dancing for a couple of months left a message asking if a friend of hers had been the previous night, she also mentioned that she could no longer go on a Tuesday night as she was having problems arranging a babysitter.

I called her back to let her know about other venues on a different night, thinking that may help. Things got a bit embarassing for her, when her partner in the background started calling out f****** poof, at which point she finished the call rather quickly.

I am not concerned about being called a poof, never met the bloke, so I assume it is just a generalisation. Surely, if he thinks all us male dancers are 'poofs, then there is no reason to get jealous and stopping her from dancing. But I don't suppose it is that simple.

Anyway, I hope she does get to come back at some point - she was turning into a v good dancer :-(

[Lory]

Originally Posted by Russell Saxby

Sometimes it is just out of our control..

That's awful!

I've got a couple of friends in really strange, claustrophobic relationships, where the man literally finds something bad to say about everything they do without them.

Its amazing how they can make 'something' out of almost ANYTHING!

Maybe this girl is in the same position?

If she told her partner the teacher was young, good looking, trendy and single. He might react badly.

If she said all the men were old, ugly and smelly, he might be OK with that but would question her about her motives for going anyway.

So she may have told him you were gay? Who knows?

[Chef]

Originally Posted by Russell Saxby

A youngish lady who has been dancing for a couple of months left a message asking if a friend of hers had been the previous night, she also mentioned that she could no longer go on a Tuesday night as she was having problems arranging a babysitter.

I called her back to let her know about other venues on a different night, thinking that may help. Things got a bit embarassing for her, when her partner in the background started calling out f****** poof, at which point she finished the call rather quickly.

Wow! I can see why it would be embarrassing for her. She has just gotten firm evidence that she has spawned a child with an idiot. Life is not being kind to her. Sharing life with an idiot and not able to go out dancing. Double Whammy.

Happy Dancing

[Jhutch]

Apologies to anyone who is getting bored with me digging up all these old threads, but i thought that this one was quite good and i have some (hopefully useful) points Feels like i am being a bit self-important talking about my experiences all the time but then hopefully i can relate to the newcomer's experiences a bit more than most on here?

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Sorry, my sentence was ambiguous. Let me clarify.

"Fewer advanced men in the beginner class -> less intimidation, less daunting for the beginner men".

Well, i wouldnt call myself advanced but i hope i am above the level of the average newby I had always thought it was good for others, as well as a refresher/warm-up for myself, to have people in who could do the moves. For the beginner women, having people who can lead the moves has to be good. For instance, if they make a slight mistake (or i do ) resulting in us being a beat or two behind then two newbies together would probably see the move fall down as they would try and pick things up by watching on the stage but always be behind and just get confused. However, hopefully i can carry them through it a few beats back - they may even learn something about following the leader rather than the stage?

For the beginner men, i didn't really notice on my first time how other people were getting on I was too busy concentrating on what i was doing. During the next few beginner's lessons i might have noticed other people a bit more but there would always be some newbies who were struggling more than me. I suppose that having good dancers in the line who try to show off could be offputting to the men on either side. When i was there i thought that everyone had done a few lessons or less, so having people there showing off might make me feel like i was picking things up really slowly. (Maybe i should mess up a few times nowadays if the girl knows the moves, thereby making the blokes on either side feel better? )

Originally Posted by JoC

I was wondering if anyone had noticed, especially when they've tried to introduce a newcomer to Ceroc, that the second night can seem to be a bit of a stumbling block. Twice I've known people come along, just love their first night (as did I) then on the second night get a bit put off and not return. I'm pretty sure it's because the first night it's novel and you get an extra high, then the second night you realise you'll have to learn all these moves and it's probably a little daunting, especially for the chaps...

Anyone got any ideas how to persuade second week waverers to come back for week three? So frustrating when you're sure that after a few weeks they'd be loving it again!

People who don't really like Ceroc will not come back after the first week. For people who do enjoy the first week though, the second week is a big test as people above have stated. I found the second week quite hard as it came to freestyle and i couldn't really do anything making me feel a bit useless. Out of the three others that i started with, the guy went after the beginner's bit of the first week Didn't really like it as he thought he was rubbish (no idea what he was actually like). At one point he was holding with the wrong hand and the teacher said 'the other right hand' line and it seemed to destroy his confidence (cant blame the teacher IMO, he had to say something and i didn't think he said it harshly). The two girls enjoyed it, went for a second time and haven't been since (despite prompting - although one does have a good reason why she can't go). As others have said i think that the newness had worn off and we were going as two instead of four. maybe if i can get them to go together.

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Jhutch

I had always thought it was good for others, as well as a refresher/warm-up for myself, to have people in who could do the moves.

You benefit from the beginner class, as it acts as a refresher. As long as that remains the case, I think it's great that you keep doing the class and keep getting that benefit. When you cease getting that benefit, as you no longer need a refresher, my feeling is that you should cease doing the class. Personally I carried on taking beginner classes longer than that. At the time I thought I was being helpful. I wasn't.

Aside from anything else, if everyone who did beginner classes to be helpful stopped, the classes would be about half the size. Small classes means more learning. Oh, and there's this:

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

Nigel Anderson once told me that he thinks 10% retention of beginners is good. I've no idea if this is the norm but I've found this figure is right for big classes - but smaller classes have a much higher retention rate.

[Jhutch]

Cheers Martin The size of the classes does make sense actually. A few lessons ago i had a beginner complaining she couldn't see the stage as we were at the far end and she was a bit short. Must make it harder for the teachers too

[bigdjiver]

Beginners are faced with a new activity and new people. I wonder if having continuity with the taxi dancers would increase beginner retention? A lot of venues have different Taxis each week, others have the same ones week after week. I wonder how the approaches compare?

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

Beginners are faced with a new activity and new people. I wonder if having continuity with the taxi dancers would increase beginner retention? A lot of venues have different Taxis each week, others have the same ones week after week. I wonder how the approaches compare?

Depends how the shifts are organised (or not!), really.

Although I think it's asking a lot for someone to taxi every week - every 2/3 weeks seems to be the standard.

[Trouble]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Depends how the shifts are organised (or not!), really.

Although I think it's asking a lot for someone to taxi every week - every 2/3 weeks seems to be the standard.

i think it very much depends on who the taxi dancers are and how helpful they are. I have seen Taxi dancers look very unapproachable and i have been and seen Taxi dancers who are always happy to help and very nice to be around. When i started there were no taxi dancers (jivetime) and i kept going back due to the nice people that were there that would help but mainly we were avoided as beginners. Ceroc taxi dancers were helpful during the class but not so much during freestyle which is when you really need them. It really does depend on the club and who is running it but Taxi dancers can cause damage as well as good in my experience. Thats why, when i taxi, i ensure i am always smiling, always get the beginners up for a dance and ensure i remember how frightening it is when your new. Not that i taxi anymore as i found it draning and hard work.

[Brian Doolan]

If a beginner is told how well they are picking up Ceroc and how brilliant they are doing, even when they obviously are not, there is a chance they'll come back. I've been doing Ceroc and Leroc for a couple of years and always attend the beginner classes and still get as much fun and pleasure out of the first class as I did when I first started. I remember accomplished dancers asking me up and after doing four or five beginner moves, over and over for the length of the music, being told how good I was (I know I wasn't), was enough encouragement to get me hooked.
Taxi dancers play an important part in the development of beginners but I think overall it's the experienced, not necessarily good, dancers who have the best chance of encouraging beginners past the second night simply by telling them how good they are and how much better they will become after a few more classes.

[Trouble]

Originally Posted by Brian Doolan

If a beginner is told how well they are picking up Ceroc and how brilliant they are doing, even when they obviously are not, there is a chance they'll come back. I've been doing Ceroc and Leroc for a couple of years and always attend the beginner classes and still get as much fun and pleasure out of the first class as I did when I first started. I remember accomplished dancers asking me up and after doing four or five beginner moves, over and over for the length of the music, being told how good I was (I know I wasn't), was enough encouragement to get me hooked.
Taxi dancers play an important part in the development of beginners but I think overall it's the experienced, not necessarily good, dancers who have the best chance of encouraging beginners past the second night simply by telling them how good they are and how much better they will become after a few more classes.

Whilst i agree totally with your point, i was not picked as a Taxi dancer because im a good dancer i was picked because my personality is warm and inviting and i encourage people. This was what i was told anyway Overall it is of course is the other dancers that encourage you experienced or not but initially new dancers do tend to rely on the taxi dancers. This is why its absolutely essential that taxi dancers are picked carefully and that they understand their roles. Which im sure they do and are 99% of the time before i get hung

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by trouble

Whilst i agree totally with your point, i was not picked as a Taxi dancer because im a good dancer i was picked because my personality is warm and inviting and i encourage people.

To dance, I assume?

[Trouble]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

To dance, I assume?

yes DJ to dance. although i have had my moments

[StokeBloke]

My experience of Ceroc so far is brief, but I did make it past my second night.

The first night was sort of terrifying, having never danced before. The four move routine seemed to last an eternity and I did not believe that I would be doing it by the end of the night - I was wrong. The taxi dancer who took the review had the patience of a saint. I even got a couple of dances on the freestyle section. If anyone has ever seen the Gene Wilder movie Young Fankenstein... think 'Putting on the Ritz' and you're pretty close.

I was drawn back by the amount of sheer encouragement I was shown, lashings of empathy without being patronised, the friendly atmosphere and the desire to do some of the really flashy stuff I saw out on the floor when I was nursing my drink trying not to get asked to dance... I now know it's called the Octopus and I was delighted to learn it the following week. There was a real 'nothings-too-much-trouble' feel to the place. It was all light hearted and fun. What a crew!

The second week we learnt a new routine, but it included a move from the week before. This was a real bonus as it felt like I was an old hand at this snazzy move (1st move) and it gave me more confidence with the other three moves. Maybe it would be an idea to take a move forward each week to promote this feeling in the new kids on the block - although I am sure some people would see that as maybe dull.

I am not sure if there is a set way to teach, but we learnt long move - short move - long move - short move. This made it so much easier to grasp. It really felt like I was making progress. I have been to a class elsewhere since and the moves were all long and really quite complex (it was something like a 1st move push spin with right handed catch - yo-yo connected to a shoulder slide - side by side). This overload would have really dented my confidence had it been my first or second time. It is especially confusing to learn a new move only to have the return taken out to slot it into the routine!!

I have only been dancing for about seven or eight weeks now. But I felt it may be useful for you guys to see it through this newbie's eyes. I only wish I had started years ago

[TurboTomato]

Originally Posted by StokeBloke

Maybe it would be an idea to take a move forward each week to promote this feeling in the new kids on the block - although I am sure some people would see that as maybe dull.

Someone may correct me if I'm wrong but afaik the beginners moves are planned week-to-week so that there is usually a move shared from one week to the next. www.cerockent.com rather helpfully lists the 4 beginners moves for the current week and the week before. Looking at last weeks moves for my wed night venue you'll see that the basket is repeated this week