Getting newcomers past the second night

[JoC]

I was wondering if anyone had noticed, especially when they've tried to introduce a newcomer to Ceroc, that the second night can seem to be a bit of a stumbling block. Twice I've known people come along, just love their first night (as did I) then on the second night get a bit put off and not return. I'm pretty sure it's because the first night it's novel and you get an extra high, then the second night you realise you'll have to learn all these moves and it's probably a little daunting, especially for the chaps...

Anyone got any ideas how to persuade second week waverers to come back for week three? So frustrating when you're sure that after a few weeks they'd be loving it again!

[Little Monkey]

Hi!

Have a look at this thread / poll: Beginners - how do we keep them?

Beginners - How do we keep them ???

Discusses exactly the issue you've raised!

LM

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by JoC

So frustrating when you're sure that after a few weeks they'd be loving it again!

Have you ever had a friend with a hobby they loved so dearly that they were sure beyond doubt it would have the same appeal to everyone they knew - if only those people would be prepared to put in the same time energy and money as the activity truly deserved? ("Come and hear the Good News...")

Ceroc London tried a while ago with free entry for the first four weeks - you got sent dated vouchers to return to the venue at which you joined for four consecutive weeks. Since they no longer do so (I don't think) I presume that it didn't work as an incentive.

Taxi-dancers are really there for the first-few-weekers, we have beginners' classes every week, the DJ's play 'easy' music (one hopes) for the first few tracks, we have revision workshops, easy-to-approach staff and teachers and so on.

I know I'm going to get some stick for this, but I can't help thinking that we're not doing anyone any favours by pretending that everyone wants to learn to dance MJ. I'm not saying that there aren't other good ideas to make things easiers for new starters that haven't yet been thought of - but you can't force people into an activity like this, it's counterproductive.

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by JoC

Anyone got any ideas how to persuade second week waverers to come back for week three?

Fewer advanced men in the beginner class -> less intimidation, less daunting.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Fewer advanced men in the beginner class -> less intimidation, less daunting.

Not that I see myself as advanced, but this is piffle, I reckon.

If I had a fiver for every newbie that gets me in the beginners class and breathes a sigh of relief, saying 'ooh thank heavens, someone that knows what they're doing', and then proceeds to visibly relax, I wouldn't have to, er, well, write quite so much software for a living.

It may be daunting for them later in the freestyle, but (a) that's different, and (b) it's very much for the more advanced dancer to put them at their ease in freestyle.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Fewer advanced men in the beginner class -> less intimidation, less daunting.

This isn't just piffle. It shows a total ignorance of what is going on in the beginners lesson. The women want to feel that they can do what they've come to learn - and as they've come to learn to follow, the only way they can do that is to have a man lead them.

[Bangers & Mash]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

This isn't just piffle. It shows a total ignorance of what is going on in the beginners lesson. The women want to feel that they can do what they've come to learn - and as they've come to learn to follow, the only way they can do that is to have a man lead them.

[MartinHarper]

Sorry, my sentence was ambiguous. Let me clarify.

"Fewer advanced men in the beginner class -> less intimidation, less daunting for the beginner men".

[Lynn]

This is interesting - I first came across MJ on holiday in Crete (wish I had discovered it about 10 years ago!) - so I had 2 classes while I was there (would have had more but was sightseeing!) and dancing every night - but I can recall one night not wanting to do MJ but wanting to just 'dance'! At that stage, would I have persisted? By the end of the week I was hooked and despite there being no MJ in NI at that time, or now (though there was for about 6 months in between for which I am very grateful!) I am still hooked...

Doesn't answer the question I'm afraid, but I can understand that feeling, a little way into it, of feeling its all too much to take in...

[David Bailey]

Honestly, Ceroc does pretty much all it can do to retain new members - from a purely marketing/business point of view, retention is so much cheaper than recruitment. The very nature of the dance, the forrmat, the teaching, the entire organisation is set up to make it as approachable and un-intimidating as possible.
Given all this effort, you pretty much have to say that if someone goes to a decent Ceroc class and doesn't really want to come back, they don't really want to learn to dance at all (the weirdos... ). Ultimately, you have to do some learning and work at it, you have to put some effort in - and lots of people aren't that keen on doing that.
For example, I tried to recruit my sister a couple of years back - she can dance, I know. I dragged her along for a few times, but she was never that enthusiastic, and gave up after a couple of months. Some people like it, some don't - just because you do, doesn't mean your friends will.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Sorry, my sentence was ambiguous. Let me clarify.

"Fewer advanced men in the beginner class -> less intimidation, less daunting for the beginner men".

This is piffle too.

Beginner men aren't paying any attention to the other blokes in the class. If they've gone with a mate and are next to them in the class then maybe they'll be aware of how one another is getting on, purely from a competitive point of view.

But beginner men, for the most part, are fully occupied with doing the class, and don't have the spare capacity to be intimidated by someone that knows what they're doing somewhere else in the room.

Learning new stuff is difficult. It requires application. Some people are prepared to 'go with' their feelings of inadequacy while they're still in the 'complete muppet' phase, and some aren't. (I wasn't - I was so rubbish in my first class that I didn't go back for six months )

So if there's any scope for encouraging people in that very early 'god i can't do this I must be the crappest dancer in the room' phase, it's in reassuring them that it is possible to get beyond that feeling.

As I said, I can well imagine that for a beginner, feeling foolish and uncoordinated, watching more accomplished people in the freestyle later might make them feel even more foolish, but that's life, unfortunately. We have to do all we can to encourage people through that phase, but there's a limit to how much it's possible - or even desirable - to nanny people through difficult feelings.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

This is piffle too.

Ah, Chris, but slightly less pifflesome (piffleful? piffle-ish?) than previous efforts.

I think that to get beginners back for the third week, they should all be made to wear silly hats with rotating lights on the top for the first two weeks. You'd know then that if they came back even a second time, the third, fourth and so on would be a breeze.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Ah, Chris, but slightly less pifflesome (piffleful? piffle-ish?) than previous efforts.

You might have measured a difference, to come up with 'slightly less', but I'll take some convincing that it's statistically significant.

[John S]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Honestly, Ceroc does pretty much all it can do to retain new members -

Not that I've noticed! For years, every newcomer to Ceroc has filled out a form with personal details, contact numbers etc. Taken together, this would have formed an enormous database of information about people who at one point in their lives had expressed an interest in learning to dance. It would have been worth a lot of money to Ceroc, but as far as I know it was never put to any use at all. Similarly, no disciplined effort has ever been made to follow up people who may have come for months/years, and who for some reason or other have stopped dancing - it would not be surprising to find that some of them will reckon they just haven't been missed.

from a purely marketing/business point of view, retention is so much cheaper than recruitment.

Totally agree. I presume it's happening all across the UK, as in Scotland our Ceroc cards are now read into a PC (or maybe a Mac, sorry Franck!) when we arrive at the venue, so a database will be built up over time which will allow analysis and follow-up messages to be sent etc. It will be interesting to see if/how it is used, and if it's worthwhile.

Note to self - can't remember whether or not the form I filled in allows my personal information to be given/sold to third parties - must check next time, as I don't want that!

[John S]

Originally Posted by JoC

I was wondering if anyone had noticed, especially when they've tried to introduce a newcomer to Ceroc, that the second night can seem to be a bit of a stumbling block.

I agree - the first night is a bit of a blur, but after a couple of weeks it's very obvious how accomplished some people are - and there's no way of the newcomer knowing that these people might have been dancing for years and/or are UK champions or something. It can all be quite dispiriting, especially for we men with sensitive egos.

When I started, there was no taxi/revision class, and for a few months I couldn't even watch the "intermediate" class or freestyle as it was all too much for me, struggling with my handwritten notes of how to do a Yo-Yo. (I'm slowly getting over that stage, honestly!)

There's got to be some motivation to put oneself through the embarrassment and humiliation (even if it's just perceived, not real). For some people it will be the ambition to be a fabulous (or even competent)dancer, for some it's to lose weight / get fit, for some it's a cheap and safe night out with pals, for some it will be to find a partner (in more than dancing).

A lot of these can be achieved in other ways, so in the end it boils down to whether or not the person wants to DANCE. It's disappointing when someone you like doesn't quite latch onto your hobby / interest / obsession as much as you do, but there isn't much you can do except remember that there really is a world beyond Ceroc (honestly!) and a bit of balance in life is no bad thing!

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by John S

Not that I've noticed!
<snip good points about historical inefficiencies>

Well, everything's relative. Ceroc may have been inefficient compared to an ideal SuperDance Organisation, but vastly efficient and welcoming compared to pretty much any other dance. For example, the idea of a serious nation-wide Salsa organisation (hell, even a local one) is laughable - I've seen a couple of attempts to start up a franchise, they all fell flat when going up against the vastness of the teacher egos. Sorry, that should be "teacher" in quotes.

I agree about data usage, that's how I'd go about it, but that was then, this is now. If I were prone to speculation, I'd imagine that Ceroc has got a sight more data-efficient recently with the recent ownership transfer, but that would of course be mere speculation on my part...

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by John S

Not that I've noticed! For years, every newcomer to Ceroc has filled out a form with personal details, contact numbers etc. Taken together, this would have formed an enormous database of information about people who at one point in their lives had expressed an interest in learning to dance. It would have been worth a lot of money to Ceroc, but as far as I know it was never put to any use at all. Similarly, no disciplined effort has ever been made to follow up people who may have come for months/years, and who for some reason or other have stopped dancing - it would not be surprising to find that some of them will reckon they just haven't been missed.

Data about members and attendance is being collated, but don't understimate the enormity of the task, given the geographical range of franchises and the difficulty in coordinating a large number of what are effectively separate businesses to gather the information. Even then, it's a huge task to reliably store the information in a way that makes it possible to ask useful questions of it - even if the 'correct' questions to be asked are obvious, which I don't think that they are. Even then, careful action has to be taken on the results - otherwise you have no idea whether you're spending your marketing budget to any effect.

I know that Ceroc is working on this, but they are at their heart a small organisation with limited manpower. And to make good use of that kind of information is a big job.

[ducasi]

Originally Posted by John S

Not that I've noticed! For years, every newcomer to Ceroc has filled out a form with personal details, contact numbers etc.

Not me!

Totally agree. I presume it's happening all across the UK, as in Scotland our Ceroc cards are now read into a PC (or maybe a Mac, sorry Franck!) when we arrive at the venue

That hasn't happened to me either.

[David Bailey]

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