Dancing by numbers....

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by tsh

I'm not sure I agree with this sentiment...
Each part of the move is supposed to be lead. The turn out shouldn't happen spontaneously just because 3 beats have passed since the start of a move that looks like a yo-yo. Even worse, the 5th beat might be a turn, or it might be a block. I'll agree that it's probably harder to follow if the lead is not on the beat, and there may be some scope for assisting here, but fundamentally, the timing is down to the lead. I would also disagree that the routine being taught is at all coreographed. The intention is to teach people to freestyle, not to be able to remember some specific routine.

Brave !!! I agree with you.. to a degree...

Each part is SUPPOSED to be lead... however, beginner men don't know how to lead and beginner women don't know how to follow.... so that ain't going to work.... well not right away... both parties are learning the move IMO - they are not being taught how to lead OR how to follow...they are taught what to do with their limbs so that the end result looks like the move the teacher is doing... they cannot feel a male teacher leading his demo... and a female teacher is telling the males what to do while dancing with a male demo - so how can the participants think that he is LEADING her ????

On his first night, a beginner man can only do the moves he has learned in the class (and not just the moves but those moves in a particular order) so he is not striclty speaking doing (or learning how to do) freestyle - he is doing the "choreographed*" routine he has learned in the class.... After a few lessons, the man can mix and match moves and THEN it is freestyle IMO..he'll be doing the moves he knows in the order of HIS choice NOT the order (or the timing) they were done in the class (and that's when women have to follow cos they don't know what's coming up) ...(*60 people in a room doing the same moves at the same time - that looks like a mini cabaret or a mini choreographed routine to me - even if it's not to any particular music)

You'd be amazed at how hard it is to get a beginner man to even start the 4 moves at the 4th move even although he has done the whole cycle through several times... (wee lambs).... they do 4 moves in the class in the same order ... the 4 same moves in the revision class in the same order .. that is all they know...and it is also what the beginner women know so that is what THEY expect.... The women's muscles have memory too.. so end up anticipating the moves.(they would need to have earplugs and blindfolds on for this not to be the case !!!!) And while the man is doing it exactly the way it was taught all goes well and it might LOOK like the woman isn't anticipating but I'll bet you she is in her head).. and when he doesn't (if there is a wee delay or pause or half-beat timing thing going on) there can be a conflict with the women who is expecting it to be the way it was taught... and then her anticipating is blatantly obvious....

Wxxx

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Wendy

I feel that this is not really explained in number terms (some teachers do this more than others) and it's certainly never explained that one count matches one beat in the music.. )

As far as I am aware; it's taught as the movements, then to a count, then to music. The 'to a count' bit is normally counted out (or if not, every movement is emphasised on the count)
Do you think that beginners need it said that count=beat? Each "Movement" within a move is taught as a position you are in on that specific count - how would numbering them make any odds? beat four is still beat four no matter if it's "thump, thump, thump, thump" or "one, two, three, four":

What I mean is that you are trying to teach people to recognise the beat and listen to the music; not count the beats like a metranome and march on the spot.

(btw when choreographed routines are taught (properly IMHO) you learn the numbers once you know the movements.. so you can do the moves to a slow count and then to a faster count and THEN to the music and it could be to ANY music cos the counts match the beats.. obviously to a choreographed routine the moves MATCH the music.. and when you think about it, the 4 beginners moves taught at CEROC make up a mini choreographed routine right ????)....still with me ?????..

no, I can't say I am I thought that you were teaching people how to dance to the music, not how to perform routines. Perhaps this may work in line-dancing where everyone has to be on the same routine at the same time {<- general assumption}.
Once you know the movements are done on the beats, and the positions you are in on each beat, then you can do them to ANY music. I just don't get why/how counting would make any difference

[quote]Then when the music starts in freestyle and no-one is shouting out the movements in time to the music, the men get the timing of the movements (the yoyo here) very wrong !!!! They do all the movements but they rush the bit between counts 3 and 4 cos they don't know that it takes a whole BEAT to go to the shoulder and then a whole BEAT to push her out.. [quote]?? but that's nothing to do with counting or the beats; it's to do with timing. That's why the "5,6,7,8" side to side movement is so vital - it gives a sense of proportion to the rest of the moves and an idea as to how long it is between counts.

The men can usually find the beat; you say so yourself. It's like the beginner lady's rushing moves and turns - "ah, I need to be there...zip...and there next...zip...". My opinion is that the men are thinking that the next movement needs to start on the beat - not that the previous one needs to finish on the beat.

An exercise that I think could be applied here to try and understand just how long you have between beats; set a counter for five seconds (no tic-toc, no count-down, no music) and say "OK, you have five seconds to do a move from same starting point to finish point. You start and stop when you think the 5 seconds are up." Most people will panic and rush it.

So the solution surely must be to do the move to
1. physical instructions
2. to a count with numbers only (slow count then faster count)
3. to a count with numbers only in time to music (slow track first and then a faster one*)

So not only does the man have to remember the moves, but the corresponding number that relates to the position he should be in at that count - and every move has a different number of counts and every count can be a different movement depending on the move... - you're adding in an extra thing for us to remember and all that I can see it doing is giving the ladies the same cues and having them 'back-lead' any counts the man gets "wrong". How this solves the back-leading problem I don't know.

BTW I did a cabaret once where the teachers didn't know how many counts there were in certain moves/sequences and was told to "listen to the music"... I nearly went off my head !!!!!!! With numbers you can do the moves to ANY music and indeed to NO music !!!! the same perfect way EVERY time !!!!

Why should they know exactly how many counts on the first run-through? they are timing the moves to match the music. It starts here, twiddly bit here, dramatic bit here.
Admittedly, to get everyone in a cabaret I can see the advantage of learning the counts - but then you are learning a routine; not how to dance.
About 50% of the time I see teachers having to count through the intermediate moves so that they know how many counts it takes and if a movement spans over two counts or there are two movements over the one count. I see no fault in that and would even praise them for ensuring that they teach the move with consistency.

I think that the only way to get the lady's to stop back-leading is to issue the men with ear-peaces and projection glasses that only they can see/hear what they should be doing. As soon as the lady sees a routine, then she wants to follow it and not the man leading it.

[MartinHarper]

I was taught that the yoyo should be "stoccato", meaning that there's a small but noticeable pause at beat four. Apparently this adds "definition" to the move - whatever that means. With other moves teachers have suggested "smoothing" out the beats, which seems to be something like the opposite effect. Sometimes a particular position is described in a class as being "on count six", but in reality it should be around 5.8-5.9, or it should vary depending on your partner.

All in all, it is perhaps good that the numbers are not given excessive emphasis by teachers?

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Wendy

and a female teacher is telling the males what to do while dancing with a male demo - so how can the participants think that he is LEADING her ????

Well I don't think I've turned out too badly as a lead - 99% of my regular class teachers have been female.

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

I was taught that the yoyo should be "stoccato", meaning that there's a small but noticeable pause at beat four. Apparently this adds "definition" to the move - whatever that means. With other moves teachers have suggested "smoothing" out the beats, which seems to be something like the opposite effect. Sometimes a particular position is described in a class as being "on count six", but in reality it should be around 5.8-5.9, or it should vary depending on your partner.?

We are still in the beginners' corner, right ?????? First couple of classes ??? this is WAY too much information.... although I'm dying to see YOUR yoyo Mr Harper....

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

All in all, it is perhaps good that the numbers are not given excessive emphasis by teachers?

You might be right.. I have no idea.. I'm just trying to work out why so many men don't get the yoyo (I danced with someone recently who's been dancing for over and year and he did this half-beat wishy washy yoyo thing I'm talking about.. and it wasn't style or musical interpretation or any of that stuff believe me !!!!)... (sorry bracket overload)... the way we are teaching it ....

I expect there are variations and difeernet emphasis on point in different venues... Glasgow men do some fantastic combs !!!!!

Wxxx

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by Gadget

I thought that you were teaching people how to dance to the music, not how to perform routines.

That would be a musicality class I think. In a beginners' class there is no room for musical interpretation as mostly there IS no music and if you listen to the music they do play it IS like a metronome so beginners can dance to something fairly simple to get them started. (If YOU interpret the music while dancing with a brand new beginner then I think you are being unhelpful to say the least!!!!)...

Have you looked at a group doing a beginners' class.. it IS line dancing !!!!

Wx

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by Gadget

Well I don't think I've turned out too badly as a lead - 99% of my regular class teachers have been female.

There might be no difference .. I have no idea.. I'm just trying to see things from a beginner's point of view... I do know however that beginner men don't pick up the leading thing very well..and I imagine even less so when the woman teacher is giving the instructions cos she's the one in control and therefore isn't, strictly speaking, being led ....

And how do you know how good/bad a lead you are ????

Wx

[tsh]

Originally Posted by Wendy

Brave !!! I agree with you.. to a degree...

Each part is SUPPOSED to be lead... however, beginner men don't know how to lead and beginner women don't know how to follow.... so that ain't going to work.... well not right away... both parties are learning the move IMO - they are not being taught how to lead OR how to follow...they are taught what to do with their limbs so that the end result looks like the move the teacher is doing... they cannot feel a male teacher leading his demo... and a female teacher is telling the males what to do while dancing with a male demo - so how can the participants think that he is LEADING her ????

Well, I'm about to go to a beginners class, where I'll be leading more clearly that the beginner men - so that should give some of the class an idea of what to expect. I'll also probably freestyle with some of the beginners, and more often than not they manage to follow.

Originally Posted by Wendy

On his first night, a beginner man can only do the moves he has learned in the class (and not just the moves but those moves in a particular order) so he is not striclty speaking doing (or learning how to do) freestyle - he is doing the "choreographed*" routine he has learned in the class.... After a few lessons, the man can mix and match moves and THEN it is freestyle IMO..he'll be doing the moves he knows in the order of HIS choice NOT the order (or the timing) they were done in the class (and that's when women have to follow cos they don't know what's coming up) ...(*60 people in a room doing the same moves at the same time - that looks like a mini cabaret or a mini choreographed routine to me - even if it's not to any particular music)

That's not how I remember my first class. Sure, some will struggle, but it's not that hard to repeat a move which doesn't involve changing hands. I think even in our beginners session we were encouraged to think about this a bit - but I can't be certain about that...

I can't do Lindy freestyle very successfully at all, but I can dance after a class without having to (or being able to) stick to the routine which has been taught.

Originally Posted by Wendy

You'd be amazed at how hard it is to get a beginner man to even start the 4 moves at the 4th move even although he has done the whole cycle through several times... (wee lambs).... they do 4 moves in the class in the same order ... the 4 same moves in the revision class in the same order .. that is all they know...and it is also what the beginner women know so that is what THEY expect.... The women's muscles have memory too.. so end up anticipating the moves.(they would need to have earplugs and blindfolds on for this not to be the case !!!!) And while the man is doing it exactly the way it was taught all goes well and it might LOOK like the woman isn't anticipating but I'll bet you she is in her head).. and when he doesn't (if there is a wee delay or pause or half-beat timing thing going on) there can be a conflict with the women who is expecting it to be the way it was taught... and then her anticipating is blatantly obvious....

It's fairly easy for the beginner ladies to dance with non-beginners (and not be able to anticipate). Similarly, the more experienced ladies mostly seem more than happy to dance with beginner men, and they then won't anticipate. They might chose to back-lead, but that's a different thread. Beginners dancing with beginners isn't where I'd expect the progress to be made. Obviously your experience doesn't agree with my observations though - which is interesting since you presumably dance lead and follow!

Sean

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Wendy

First couple of classes ??? this is WAY too much information.

I'm not proposing you start teaching these things, just noting some reasons why you might not want to overemphasise the count in a lesson.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Wendy

and a female teacher is telling the males what to do while dancing with a male demo - so how can the participants think that he is LEADING her ????

...because the instructions are all directed to the men: "push down towards the ladies hip .... bring your left hand back to shoulder ..." It doesn't matter where the instructions come from, they are from the man's point of view. Anyway, if he's a decent demo, he *will* be leading her (and if she's a decent teacher, she'll *let* him, at least for the class...) and you can see that from the floor.

There's a very good reason for not learning the moves to a numerical count: the "five, six, seven, eight" in the intro to a move are musical beats, but the 'Ceroc counts' are not - they're two beats each. And you can start a ceroc move on any down-beat you like, on 1, on 3 (or 5 or 7 if you're counting to eight in two bars of music.)

Not to mention that when you put moves together, the "semi-circle and step back" gets elided from the second and subsequent moves. So if you add two 8-count moves together you only get 15 counts. Sure it all makes sense, but how much do you want to end up explaining this on someone's first evening?

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Wendy

In a beginners' class there is no room for musical interpretation as mostly there IS no music and if you listen to the music they do play it IS like a metronome

I dissagree; even if it's just changing moves to tie in with the music, coming to a 'bounce-point' at a break with a slight hesitation, ... why should I stop dancing to the music just because I have a beginner dancer? I want them to have some fun and feel like they are dancing to the music as well - not just going through moves. {that's what the taxis are for }

(If YOU interpret the music while dancing with a brand new beginner then I think you are being unhelpful to say the least!!!!)...

really? in what way? I'm not doing 'freezes', 'extravogant' moves or anything that would have them 'hanging about' waiting for me to finish or expecting them to do somthing; they are beginners. However I will do the occasional promanade or extend a move over a few more beats, finish with a comb or swizzle, ...
This is dancing: turning music into movement. Just because they are learning the movement does not make them deaf to the music - I don't agree with treating them as such.

Have you looked at a group doing a beginners' class.. it IS line dancing !!!!

I know : I tried to make that point in another thread.

And how do you know how good/bad a lead you are ????

two or three things: The majority of ladys go where I want them, when I want them and are where I expect them to be. Positive and honest feedback from people I have never danced with before. Unsolicited feedback from people I trust. Asked a few teachers.
I'm not a *great* lead - but I am working on it. I strive for DavidB status, but he's probably forgotten more than I will ever know.

Re: female teachers - wouldn't they know better what they want from a lead? They want to feel pressure here in this direction.

[Gary]

Originally Posted by Wendy

...
So the solution surely must be to do the move to

1. physical instructions

then

2. to a count with numbers only (slow count then faster count)

then

3. to a count with numbers only in time to music (slow track first and then a faster one*)

...

That's pretty much how we do it all the time in Sydney.

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by Gadget

why should I stop dancing to the music just because I have a beginner dancer? I want them to have some fun and feel like they are dancing to the music as well - not just going through moves

I don't think there should be too many interesting bits of music which leave space for musical interpretation during the beginners' class or indeed until taxi time is over... that's what the freestyle AFTER 9.45 is for And your musical interpretation might not be the same as the girl's.... it is a personal thing. As leading is as important, if not more important, than musical interpretation, especially if the girl is a beginner, then I think you should concentrate on your leading before 9.45 whether you are a taxi or not... You still have lots of time to practise your style and whatever with more experienced dancers.. and the braver beginners will stay on later and get a taste of that too if they want...and some might even want space to interpret the music as well...

A good test of whether the girl is enjoying the dance or not is to see if she is smiling.... there's an idea for another workshop "How to interpret the expression on your partner's face" ...

Wx

[CJ]

Originally Posted by Wendy

cos she's the one in control and therefore isn't, strictly speaking, being led ... Wx

Strictly speaking or, indeed, loosely speaking: she IS being led. A teacher with whom I demo frequently is quite strong about me leading the move, next step etc which is why sometimes there is a pause between her speel and me moving as I'm not always sure she has finished!!

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by Gary

That's pretty much how we do it all the time in Sydney.

IT's pretty much how we do it here too.. I was suggesting we do it to a count WITHOUT instructions once the move has been mastered..

Wx

[CJ]

Originally Posted by Wendy

I don't think there should be too many interesting bits of music which leave space for musical interpretation during the beginners' class or indeed until taxi time is over... that's what the freestyle AFTER 9.45 is for
Wx

IYHO?!????

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by Ceroc Jock

IYHO?!????

Don't know what that stands for... expect it means "in your humble opinion".. my opinion isn't humble as you know so it can 't be that ....

That is what I think.. based odn the fast that ...a really complicated track like "all that jazz" or that Meatloaf marathon one before 9.45 would be nighstmare if you were dancing with a beginner as a taxi... we are still on duty remember so are dancing with COMPLETE beginners (who have barely masted 4 moves) until 9.45.... if the music doesn't fit that situation then is making life pretty hard for us and for the beginner who is learning... I think there should be a clear change in music at 9.45...

Wx