Dancing by numbers....

[tsh]

Originally Posted by Wendy

Dwe are still on duty remember so are dancing with COMPLETE beginners (who have barely masted 4 moves) until 9.45.... if the music doesn't fit that situation then is making life pretty hard for us and for the beginner who is learning... I think there should be a clear change in music at 9.45...

So the musis ought to be chosen for the benefit of the 4 taxi dancers, and beginners should go home at 9:45?

Sure, some beginners are difficult to dance with to more challenging music, but some (the ones who are more likely to come back?) don't have any problems. The difficult ones are usually difficult all the time!

Beginner leads almost certainly arn't dancing to the music anyway, but if they like the music, they may well dance better.

I think you should try and think more positively about your beginners. I'm sure thay're not all a bad as you seem to suggest!

Sean

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Wendy

I don't think there should be too many interesting bits of music which leave space for musical interpretation during the beginners' class or indeed until taxi time is over... that's what the freestyle AFTER 9.45 is for

{snip}

I think you should concentrate on your leading before 9.45 whether you are a taxi or not...

Wx

Sounds like a perfect recipe for preventing any decent dancers from ever turning up to a venue (like, they're going to come along for less than an hour's decent music?)

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Wendy

...a really complicated track like "all that jazz" .... before 9.45 would be nighstmare if you were dancing with a beginner as a taxi...

Only if you try to interpret it!!

95% of people dancing to All That Jazz aren't interpreting it, so surely the taxis should be able not to as well

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by Wendy

... before 9.45 would be nighstmare if you were dancing with a beginner as a taxi... we are still on duty remember so are dancing with COMPLETE beginners (who have barely masted 4 moves) until 9.45.... if the music doesn't fit that situation then is making life pretty hard for us and for the beginner who is learning... I think there should be a clear change in music at 9.45...

That used to be the practise around here. However it was noted that beginners tended to leave early, and the threshold for more challenging music has been brought forward, with the DJ's reading the floor, taking into account the presence of Taxis and beginners.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

...because the instructions are all directed to the men: "push down towards the ladies hip .... bring your left hand back to shoulder ..." It doesn't matter where the instructions come from, they are from the man's point of view.

By that logic if a male teacher gives instructions to the ladies he must be following? Incidentally, I frequently have to point out to beginner ladies that the instructions are in fact for the men.

Originally Posted by Ceroc Jock

Strictly speaking or, indeed, loosely speaking: she IS being led. A teacher with whom I demo frequently is quite strong about me leading the move, next step etc which is why sometimes there is a pause between her speel and me moving as I'm not always sure she has finished!!

I know the problem - I frequently think she's finished only to be surprised by another little gem of wisdom.

I have explained to Wendy what it's like to lead as a demo, given that there IS a degree of backleading when the teacher wants to highlight something. I still think she has a point though - beginner men and women are unlikely to be able to tell who is leading (personally I can only detect it when there is a slight mistake - if everything is flowing I think it's really hard to see). I know the teachers often mention the lead-follow aspect, but from my experience it doesn't always register with beginners, and unless you incorporate specific exercises into the class it really isn't something which leaps out at you.

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

There's a very good reason for not learning the moves to a numerical count: the "five, six, seven, eight" in the intro to a move are musical beats, but the 'Ceroc counts' are not - they're two beats each. And you can start a ceroc move on any down-beat you like, on 1, on 3 (or 5 or 7 if you're counting to eight in two bars of music.)

The huge majority of classes I have attended have the 5,6,7,8 counted out in 'Ceroc counts', not beats of the music. In fact the only time I can think of hearing it counted as musical beats is where it's done as 5...6...5,6,7,8 (ie first bar on 'Ceroc counts', second bar on beats).

Originally Posted by tsh

So the musis ought to be chosen for the benefit of the 4 taxi dancers, and beginners should go home at 9:45?

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Sounds like a perfect recipe for preventing any decent dancers from ever turning up to a venue (like, they're going to come along for less than an hour's decent music?)

I think you're reading more into Wendy's comments about the music than she intended. I agree with her that playing VERY challenging tracks while the taxis are still supposed to be dancing with beginners is not all that helpful - that doesn't mean you're restricted to crap tracks. If saving All That Jazz until 10pm is really going to put anyone off coming, I don't think they were going to have a brilliant night anyway. Also, the speed of the track makes a difference - I do find that occasionally when I'm on duty I have to sit a track out when a beginner asks me because I know it's too fast for that particular person. If that happens I really hope the next track is going to be moderately-paced, otherwise it gets a bit awkward. I don't think you need to completely distort the playlist to be able to accommodate these two requests.

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Wendy

I don't think there should be too many interesting bits of music which leave space for musical interpretation during the beginners' class or indeed until taxi time is over... that's what the freestyle AFTER 9.45 is for

I don't believe you are actually suggesting that! (OK, I know the devils were exadurating the view, but...)
The music is as interesting as you make it. Why play music at all during the beginners class or until 9:45? Just get a little yamaha keyboard that goes dum tsh dumdum tsh, dum tsh dumdum tsh, ... {Or play "call on me" on repeat }
Sure, don't play "difficult" tracks to dance to, but that does not equate to less interesting or less space for musical interpretation.

And your musical interpretation might not be the same as the girl's.... it is a personal thing.

Yup - but I'm leading. She goes by my interpretation. If she can't feel that interpretation, then I'm not leading properly. Remember we're talking about beginners; anyone else wants to interpret differently and I'll adapt to accommodate. But my belief is that she should be looking to elaborate on my interpretation - follow my lead - not create her own and expect me to follow hers. Fine if we're on the same wavelength, but just de-rails the dance otherwise.

As leading is as important, if not more important, than musical interpretation, especially if the girl is a beginner, then I think you should concentrate on your leading before 9.45 whether you are a taxi or not...

what better way to "practice" your leading than by changing the timing or even the moves to match the music? I think that you should always concentrate on the leading - are you saying that you should stop leading clearly just because you're not dancing with a beginner or the music has become more 'expressive'?

I also think I disagree with the concept that musical interpretation is less important than leading: the whole point to leading is for musical interpretation. Otherwise why bother to dance to the count or find the beat? I think in fact that the lead is less important than dancing to the music. {If you didn't think so, then why would you abandon the lead and do your own thing to the music rather than following it?}

The method you seem to be applying is to develop moves, movements and timing (a) separate from the music (b), then once an appreciation of both has been met, join a+b. Two separate strands that join and entwine.
I think that the appreciation of music (b) needs to be developed, then moves and timing learned(a) to further the expression of the music. The strand of music being wrapped by expression - learned together rather than separate.
(This is assuming that most folk have at least a glimmering of (b) that can be worked on - if not, then that's the bit I would address first; like finding the beat)

You still have lots of time to practise your style and whatever with more experienced dancers..

And they are more likely to anticipate and try and interpret my lead rather than just following it . When I want to practice a lead or make sure I have something right, then I would much rather have a beginner (or novice) on the end of my arm than an experienced dancer: If they are experienced, then I don't know how much they are compromising; I don't get a true follow - I get what they think I am trying to lead.

and the braver beginners will stay on later and get a taste of that too if they want...and some might even want space to interpret the music as well...

Why would they stay on? all they know is metronome dancing. They see others dancing to the music and think "I can never do that" - if it was taught with more musical interpretation, perhaps they may think "I can't do that yet" and stay longer.

A good test of whether the girl is enjoying the dance or not is to see if she is smiling.... there's an idea for another workshop "How to interpret the expression on your partner's face" ...

I've seldom had anything but smiles - I would love to think that every dance with a beginner that ends in a smile was enjoyable for her, but I know there is no such quantity.

[spindr]

Just a thought -- but do the beginners get taught what the beat/MJ count is, or how to find it (maybe even to clap along)?

SpinDr.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by spindr

Just a thought -- but do the beginners get taught what the beat/MJ count is, or how to find it (maybe even to clap along)?

I haven't seen anyone doing this but it's a good idea.

[Gadget]

yes - Lorna teaches it in the 'warmup'; that and actually stepping to the count as well.

[MartinHarper]

Since this is the dancing by numbers thread...

Originally Posted by Graham

The huge majority of classes I have attended have the 5,6,7,8 counted out in 'Ceroc counts', not beats of the music. In fact the only time I can think of hearing it counted as musical beats is where it's done as 5...6...5,6,7,8.

This always bugged me. Splitting music into chunks of eight beats seems to be a standard. Splitting music into chunks of eight Ceroc counts would be weird, but doable, but that's not something that's taught in Ceroc - instead, the count during moves goes 1... 2... 3... 4... 5... 6... 7... 8... 9... 10... 11... 12... 13... (etc, etc).

How about "3, 2, 1, go"?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Graham

By that logic if a male teacher gives instructions to the ladies he must be following? Incidentally, I frequently have to point out to beginner ladies that the instructions are in fact for the men.

My turn not to follow your logic there, Graham: it's the wording of the instructions, not who gives them, that counts. Anyway, people get stuck in a mental rut when they're listening to verbal instructions. How many times does the teacher have to repeat "at waist level" to a class before the people with their arms in the air realise she's talking to them? I think the ladies should be issued earplugs, so they can't hear the instructions or the music, and the men with remotely triggered electric catttle prods to wake them up a bit. That would make things much easier.

Originally Posted by Graham

I have explained to Wendy what it's like to lead as a demo, given that there IS a degree of backleading when the teacher wants to highlight something. I still think she has a point though - beginner men and women are unlikely to be able to tell who is leading (personally I can only detect it when there is a slight mistake - if everything is flowing I think it's really hard to see). I know the teachers often mention the lead-follow aspect, but from my experience it doesn't always register with beginners, and unless you incorporate specific exercises into the class it really isn't something which leaps out at you.

Yes, all true.

Originally Posted by Graham

I think you're reading more into Wendy's comments about the music than she intended.

Sorry, Wendy, I'm a dumb-ass.

Originally Posted by Graham

The huge majority of classes I have attended have the 5,6,7,8 counted out in 'Ceroc counts', not beats of the music. In fact the only time I can think of hearing it counted as musical beats is where it's done as 5...6...5,6,7,8 (ie first bar on 'Ceroc counts', second bar on beats).

I guess you're right. I know: let's give the beats of the move letters - A, B, C, D - or maybe we could count in Roman Numberals: i, ii, iii, iv.

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by tsh

So the musis ought to be chosen for the benefit of the 4 taxi dancers, and beginners should go home at 9:45? I think you should try and think more positively about your beginners. I'm sure thay're not all a bad as you seem to suggest!

I am suggesting that we play music that makes it as easy as possible for beginners to learn ceroc. I certainly don't think beginners are bad and have never said that !!!!!! And they are usually FABULOUS once they have had a revision class or two with me

My concern is that after the revision class they are starting to get the moves and are ready to put them into practice on that scary big dancefloor out there (have you been listening to Ducasi and hearing how scared some people are to get dancing ???????????) ...... On several (in fact numerous) occasions I have felt that the track (or two) just after the class is too fast or too slow for them to dance confidently to... How demoralising must that be !!!!!!!

I am not suggesting "rubbish" music.. (whatever that is !!!) I am saying that some tracks are more challenging than others to dance to so why not save them till nearer the end of the night ?? What's the big deal ?????

And I am also NOT thinking of myself when it comes to the music BEFORE 9.45 I am thinking of the beginners... (I admit I am dismayed if one of my favourite tracks gets played before the watershed cos I can't dance to it as I would want to cos I'm going to be dancing with beginners (and I'm talking one or two classes beginner here !!!!) (NB not bad - just beginners !!! and many of them would have a heebie geebie fit if I did wiggly things to breaks etc and I would simply never do that to a beginner !!!!) I admit I DO want more challenging music AFTER 9.45 cos I want to dance with more experienced dancers and let rip a little... And feel free to throw rocks at me for my sinful and selfish ways but please note that that's how we get paid ! And as a taxi, I dance with beginners when I am not on duty cos they know me and I dance as a man when there are too many women so I think I am doing my fair share... so a few yummy dances with a few yummy dancers isn't asking too much - is it ???? ... nor is it EXCLUSIVE before we get into that one again...

Please note that I have had many comments of gratitude from beginner men AND women in the last 4 years ... I want them to come back.. I want them to enjoy themselves.... I want them to learn something.. and I want them to feel confident at the end of a night... I think the choice of music early in the evening can make a huge contribution to these factors.... and let's face it, if the music didn't really matter we could just lose the djs and put a cd on and press random play...

I really am only suggesting that certain tracks should be played later in the evening..... I can't see why people would think that was such a bad thing to suggest

Wx

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Wendy

So the solution surely must be to do the move to

1. physical instructions

then

2. to a count with numbers only (slow count then faster count)

then

3. to a count with numbers only in time to music (slow track first and then a faster one*)

This was more or less how moves were taught here (when we had classes ) but I think partly because it was requested by some of the class. It was a small class and some people found it easier to learn the moves by description, others by a count. So both were shown and then I think people could use the count option if it helped them.

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Sounds like a perfect recipe for preventing any decent dancers from ever turning up to a venue (like, they're going to come along for less than an hour's decent music?)

When you think about it there isn't that much music before 9.45 anyway... and I'm possibly talking about 2/3 tracks at around 9.15 (and as I said previously, this is also time for the intermediate dancers to practise new moves too so why not keep it simple.. and simple doesn't have to be "not decent" either BTW...

And can't a a "decent" dancer make ANY track great to dance to if they want to, no ???? I dance differently to the same track depending on who I am dancing with.

Wx

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by Gadget

: The music is as interesting as you make it.

Yip !!!! So what's the problem ??

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by Gadget

Yup - but I'm leading. She goes by my interpretation.

speechless....

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by Gadget

anyone else wants to interpret differently and I'll adapt to accommodate. But my belief is that she should be looking to elaborate on my interpretation - follow my lead - not create her own and expect me to follow hers.

That'll be based on that old Chinese proverb "It takes one to tango!"

Wx