Dancing by numbers....

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Fair enough. A few tracks of easier music is a very good idea.?

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Whether that lasts until 9:45 depends on what time the classes end though.

Beginners can use the skill, talent and wisdom, support and encouragement of taxis till that time so it seems like a good cut off point to me....and many go home in tears at that point anyway having spent an evening with me...

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Depends on how 'decent' you mean. I would one day llike to think that I can make any track great to dance to, but I know some 'great's are going to be greater than other 'greats', if you follow me. You do? Great!

It depended on how "decent" you meant too.. but I decided not to go there.... same thing with "decent" music.... I can have a great time with some dancers to that yamaha piano thing Gadget was suggesting - in fact with some people we'd get along just fine with no music at all I expect

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Reluctant as I am to come to the support of Gadget...unless the two of you are each misunderstanding what the other means by interpretation, I can't see that what he said was very contentious. They leader is going to set the moves, the pace, the pauses (except as discussed) the syncopations, whether the moves are 'big' or 'small') for the most part. As a broad approximation then, yes, the following is going by his interpretation, no?

The music sets the pace the pauses etc IMHO and I follow the music without any arguments whatsoever !!!!! When a lead fills in ALL the breaks and NEVER notices that I want to play too, then I don't feel like I'm partner dancing at all... I feel like an extension of his over-developed ego !!!!!!!! And many dancers dance the same way to every single track.... so I don't see how they can think they are interpreting the music at all..

This conversation doesn't really fit the thread I fear... is that cos I took the lead and it's all fallen apart ????

And since you guys are hitting it off so well, I'd love to watch you dance together.. taking the lead in turns.... and then seeing what you both think...

WxWx

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Wendy

I am suggesting that we play music that makes it as easy as possible for beginners to learn ceroc.

What you actually wrote was "no interesting music". What you apparently meant was "no difficult music". If you write what you mean, then that'll probably help the discussion along a bit.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

What you actually wrote was "no interesting music". What you apparently meant was "no difficult music". If you write what you mean, then that'll probably help the discussion along a bit.

Again, we hit commercial reality. One of the aims of improving retention for new starters of modern jive is to emphasize the "modern" part of it. To prove to new punters* that MJ can be danced to any(-ish) pop track, and so get them to connect to the dance, relate it to their own club experiences, and hopefully come again, I imagine most DJs pretty much have to play more modern, standard pop tracks, at least early on.

And "difficult" is not exactly the same as "interesting", sure - but they're not too far apart in this sense I feel.

* who are paying more than the freestylers, and have as much "right" to the venue and the music they want as any "oldtimers" do.

[bigdjiver]

Ceroc run dance classes, and they give their pupils a chance to practice what they have learned. As had been complained about incessently they do not teach very much interpretation, hitting the breaks, allowing the women their space in a normal class, and they are in no obligation to give us the opportunity to practice those things. In practice they do give us some more adventurous music.

That is the system that got Ceroc where it is today, and us where we are now. The majority is not where we are now, but back where we were, thinking there is no dance class that we would like, or that we could not do it if we tried. I think that ceroc should maintain the mission that it has shown it can accomplish, teach newcomers to dance, and expand their network to give the same opportunity to others.

If it is deficient anywhere, IMO, it is in running enough workshops and freestyles to give the more advanced dancers a greater opportunity. It should keep the normal class format just about as it is, but giving it small tweaks this way and that and see exactly how those small changes pan out.

[Magic Hans]

Originally Posted by Gadget

I don't believe you are actually suggesting that! (OK, I know the devils were exaggerating the view, but...)

The music is as interesting as you make it. Why play music at all during the beginners class or until 9:45? Just get a little yamaha keyboard that goes dum tsh dumdum tsh, dum tsh dumdum tsh, ... {Or play "call on me" on repeat }
...

I think that I'm tending to side with Wendy a little bit here. It strikes me that it's a pretty difficult balance to try to ecstatically please allcomers, despite dancing ability/experience and musical tastes, during the 1-1 1/2 hours (8:30ish - 9pm, 9:45ish - 10:30pm) of freestyle music at a typical weekday event.

Playing just popular, steady beated music back-to-back for all that time might prove a great training ground for beginners, but might bore more experienced dancers to death, scare them off and provide beginners and improvers less opportunity for advancement.

Equally, playing more obscure music varying from the very slow to the very speedy could well have beginners simply tearing their hair out!! Whilst satisfying more of the more experienced.

Certainly, after taxi-ing, I do like to "pay" myself by selfishly having 2-3 good dances with good dancers!! [ ... well ones I like to dance with]

Originally Posted by gadget

...
I also think I disagree with the concept that musical interpretation is less important than leading: the whole point to leading is for musical interpretation. Otherwise why bother to dance to the count or find the beat? I think in fact that the lead is less important than dancing to the music. {If you didn't think so, then why would you abandon the lead and do your own thing to the music rather than following it?}
...

I kind of agree here, I suppose !! It depends on how musical interpretation is defined. I guess I see musical interpretation as connecting with the mood of the music, identifying the musical phrases whose length might differ markedly, and can sometimes be very subtle.

I feel very, very fortunate that my parents introduced me to music (piano lessons) before I was ten, and I believe that those 20+ years of exposure to such varied music truly helps me to connect. Sadly, I see precious few men creatively expressing themselves to music, except at weekend events and some freestyles.

But I guess, underlying any sort of interpretation is an understanding of basics such as identifying the beat. Which I guess, is an underlying requisite for any type of dancing, [although less vital when soloing!]

However, leading is IMO more important than any deeper understanding of musical interpretation is.

!an

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

What you actually wrote was "no interesting music". What you apparently meant was "no difficult music". If you write what you mean, then that'll probably help the discussion along a bit.

Apologies.. and what I really meant was challenging music now I think about it...

And I'll try harder to say what I really mean.

Wx

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

95% of people dancing to All That Jazz aren't interpreting it, so surely the taxis should be able not to as well

Good point !!!!

I usually just sit it out as I feel I've interpreted it to death

Next time I dance to it (cos I'm asked) I'll try hard to do no interpreting of the music...

Here's an idea - Maybe girls should get lessons in that so we can tune in better to our partner's musicality...didn't they have a chip for that in that Stepford Wives film ????

Wxxx

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

That used to be the practise around here. However it was noted that beginners tended to leave early, and the threshold for more challenging music has been brought forward, with the DJ's reading the floor, taking into account the presence of Taxis and beginners.

I think beginners do leave early which is understandable as they are in learning mode most of the time... Think that sounds like a sensible approach.

Wx

[Whitebeard]

Originally Posted by Wendy

Originally Posted by ChrisA
95% of people dancing to All That Jazz aren't interpreting it, so surely the taxis should be able not to as well

Never had the chance to try to interpretit this. The version I have is 5.04 - far too long for me. What version is favoured where it is played ??

[Graham]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

This always bugged me. Splitting music into chunks of eight beats seems to be a standard. Splitting music into chunks of eight Ceroc counts would be weird, but doable, but that's not something that's taught in Ceroc - instead, the count during moves goes 1... 2... 3... 4... 5... 6... 7... 8... 9... 10... 11... 12... 13... (etc, etc).

Ceroc patterns are not generally taught in a way which is timed to fit a musical phrase, and they are different lengths, so in freestyle you could start and finish any move on any beat of a phrase. In a way, therefore, it doesn't make much sense to teach them to a particular phrasing, but by convention (I assume) they are always taught starting on the first beat of a phrase, hence the 5,6,7,8 introduction.

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

How about "3, 2, 1, go"?

Nigel Anderson, for example, plays around with the introduction and says things like 23..7..19..go, but he does still do it to the 5,6,7,8 of the musical phrase!

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

As had been complained about incessently they do not teach very much interpretation, hitting the breaks, allowing the women their space in a normal class, and they are in no obligation to give us the opportunity to practice those things.

And I am one who has complained. I think it's a shame these things aren't included in the intermediate class... and really don't understand why they can't. The intermediate class could cover the same moves that are covered in the beginner class but with musicalily style .. more emphasis on lead follow etc. Maybe not every week.. but once in a while... Intermediate classes do little to help women improve IMHO...

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

The majority is not where we are now, but back where we were, thinking there is no dance class that we would like, or that we could not do it if we tried. I think that ceroc should maintain the mission that it has shown it can accomplish, teach newcomers to dance, and expand their network to give the same opportunity to others.

I agree...

(I DID think I could dance BTW before I went to ceroc (solo dancing of course... ) and I expect most women do too...In many ways I have had to un-learn the way I danced to do ceroc)

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

If it is deficient anywhere, IMO, it is in running enough workshops and freestyles to give the more advanced dancers a greater opportunity. It should keep the normal class format just about as it is, but giving it small tweaks this way and that and see exactly how those small changes pan out.

Absolutely agree.

Wx

[ducasi]

Originally Posted by Wendy

Thanks for your thoughts.. always very welcome !!!!

Thanks for listening!

I don't think it matters that a whole move takes 8/16 beats (it might later when you want to end a song in a particular postion or something .. dunno,... I'm not that good at leading to know )..

I never noticed this ceroc beats vs. real beats thing. There's a difference? And here I thought I had a fairly good sense of rhythm.

but it DOES matter if your partner is expecting you to turn out on 3 and and you do it on 2 or on a half beat - even worse !!!!!...

I don't think I'm getting it wrong, but I don't know - I'm aware of our teacher and the taxis telling us not to rush through moves but to follow the beat. I'd like more time dancing with someone who can tell me if I'm getting things like this wrong.

A beginner is learning the moves/beats as you are (even although she is meant to be following).. if you don't want women to back-lead then you might as well learn it to the "correct" counts etc at first.. and then when you know the basics you can add pauses and variations that will make beginner women either squeal with delight or think are getting it WRONG and be terrifed !!! Beginner women can't follow yet - they are learning moves too and want to get it "right"...

My experience is that even non-beginners will freak out a bit if I add the slightest variation to a move. I guess they are maybe going a bit into "auto-pilot" as they're dancing with a beginner after all!

If a lady took 2.5 beats to do a turn/return you'd know how awful it can feel when it's "wrong" (and I'm talking timing-wise not movement-wise.... (jeez some guys come out in a rash when I take longer than I "should" even although I'm keeping to the beat !!!!!)

Dancing with anyone who is not in time with you (no matter who is at fault) feels pretty awful.

Is something like marching not taught to numbers ??? I am just thinking of Clive Dunn in Dad's Army... and imagining someone singing in a choir at the wrong time.....

Counting in marches never goes above 4, and there really are only 2 basic moves (left and right!) I suppose there are things like turns... Anyway, that must make it a bit easier to get right.

What I'm saying is that once you get into higher numbers it doesn't help because you can't remember which number is which move. (Or is it just me?) And isn't there a reason why they use marching songs rather than just calling out numbers?

Each part is SUPPOSED to be lead... however, beginner men don't know how to lead and beginner women don't know how to follow.... so that ain't going to work.... well not right away...

I feel you're being a little unkind to beginners here. We might not be fantastic at it, but both are natural skills. Have you ever owned a dog? You lead, it follows. If it's big enough, occasionally it leads, you follow.

I'm just trying to work out why so many men don't get the yoyo

I think I've got it. There has to be a clear separation between the sweep out and the turn back in.

Glasgow men do some fantastic combs !!!!!

This is a move I was taught at the Edinburgh workshop but have yet to properly master. Maybe I'm just waiting for the right woman to try it on...


A brief aside...

Originally Posted by tsh

but it's not that hard to repeat a move which doesn't involve changing hands.

Is changing hands meant to be hard?


Back to the main thread...

Originally Posted by Wendy

a really complicated track like "all that jazz" or that Meatloaf marathon one before 9.45 would be nightmare if you were dancing with a beginner as a taxi...

I totally agree with you here. first, I really hate "all that jazz", (and it's got lots of breaks which would freak me out, and now it's stuck in my head! ), and although I love Meatloaf, "paradise..." is just tooooo long to expect me to make it all the way though it alive. I'd be praying for the end of time.

I assume when you say "9.45" you mean half an hour after the intermediate class finishes. Round my way that'd be 10 pm. And, yep Tsh, I do go home once the music gets too complicated!

Originally Posted by Gadget

{Or play "call on me" on repeat }

That'd be cool with me! Love that track!

Originally Posted by spindr

Just a thought -- but do the beginners get taught what the beat/MJ count is, or how to find it (maybe even to clap along)?

I thought I understood what was going on until I read this thread. I haven't been taught what the "MJ count" is, or how it relates to the beat. That said, I usually don't seem to have a big problem finding it, so I must be doing something right?

Originally Posted by Wendy

(have you been listening to Ducasi and hearing how scared some people are to get dancing ???????????)

Yeah, but I'm just a big woose! (and how do you spell "woose" anyway???)

It's funny, but I have almost zero recollection of any of the music our resident (fabby ) DJ plays. I do know I've usually been able to dance to it. I do recall feeling annoyed as I miss simple breaks as I'm in the middle of something else. (I just love it when the music breaks - watch me dancing at a club and I'm the one trying to anticipate the breaks coming in, feeling the tension, and then the release as music kicks back in. It's almost a reason for living.)

Either way, it's not been the music on a class night that has put me off dancing, though it was a factor at the Edinburgh party. But I don't think Wendy's going to start saying only easy music should be played there for the likes of me, is she?

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

Never had the chance to try to interpretit this. The version I have is 5.04 - far too long for me. What version is favoured where it is played ??

Our versison is 17.06 minutes I think

Wx

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Whitebeard

Never had the chance to try to interpretit this. The version I have is 5.04 - far too long for me. What version is favoured where it is played ??

Er, I think it's the Ute Lempur version (4:01), not that I know any others particularly. The DJs will know. Well the good ones, anyway

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by ducasi

Either way, it's not been the music on a class night that has put me off dancing, though it was a factor at the Edinburgh party. But I don't think Wendy's going to start saying only easy music should be played there for the likes of me, is she?

Well I wouldn't ask for "easy" music at a party night, no...not even for one of my Tuesday beginners I took G to a party when he was a beginner and he was miserable (an Edinburgh party as it happens but can't say if the music was a factor or not). Personally I don't enjoy a lot of the music at Edinburgh parties and only go cos there are some fabulous dancers around.

Too much to quote sweet Ducasi but it's time for bed...

Wx

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by ducasi

I never noticed this ceroc beats vs. real beats thing. There's a difference? And here I thought I had a fairly good sense of rhythm.

{enormous snip}

I thought I understood what was going on until I read this thread. I haven't been taught what the "MJ count" is, or how it relates to the beat.

Ceroc counts are two beats - two 'counts' to a 4-beat bar.
When the teacher goes "5 and 6 and 7 and 8" those are Ceroc counts - two musical bars worth, in fact.
When the teacher goes "5,6 - 5 6 7 8" - then the first 5 and 6 are Ceroc counts, and the second set of 5,6,7,8 are musical beats, four to a bar.

A ceroc move always takes an even number of beats, even if it has an odd number of counts - because the number of beats is twice the number of counts.

So you always start a move on a down beat (beat 1 or three in the bar, or beats 5 or 7 if you're counting 8 beats over two bars.)

I think.

[MartinHarper]

It's "wuss".

Originally Posted by ducasi

I never noticed this ceroc beats vs. real beats thing. There's a difference? And here I thought I had a fairly good sense of rhythm.

There is, but it's somewhat arcane. I can't add much to DavidB's post that started the thread on musical interpretation. The "MJ count" is counting only the downbeats.