Dancing by numbers....

Wendy · 4th-April-2005, 12:41 PM

This has been inspired by the back-leading thread but since I couldn't get to sleep on Saturday thinking about it, I thought it deserved its own thread !!!!

Right ! I hope this is a biggie cos it feels like one to me !!!!

Let's take the yoyo... this might not be perfect CEROC script but you'll get my drift)

Step back on 1
Step in (hand to shoulder) 2
Push her out 3
Step round to face L shape arms 4
Turn her 5
Step back 6
Return 7
Step back 8

Well something like that..

I feel that this is not really explained in number terms (some teachers do this more than others) and it's certainly never explained that one count matches one beat in the music..

)

So... the class progresses with instructions of each movement as above but without the numbers... and the teacher says " to a count 5,6,7,8" (which must be Greek to some people BTW as it's not explained) and then the instructions are given to a regularish beat but still no numbers... (btw when choreopgraphed routines are taught (properly IMHO) you learn the numbers once you know the movements.. so you can do the moves to a slow count and then to a faster count and THEN to the music and it could be to ANY music cos the counts match the beats.. obviously to a choreaographed routine the moves MATCH the music.. and when you think about it, the 4 beginners moves taught at CEROC make up a mini choreographed routine right ????)....still with me ?????..

Then when the music starts in freestyle and no-one is shouting out the movements in time to the music, the men get the timing of the movements (the yoyo here) very wrong !!!! They do all the movements but they rush the bit between counts 3 and 4 cos they don't know that it takes a whole BEAT to go to the shoulder and then a whole BEAT to push her out.. and then the whole things falls apart... and of course our sweet lady beginners who HAVE picked up the count thing (maybe that is a woman thing or maybe we have more experience of learning dance routines cos even as wee girls we are trying to be Kylie or whatever!!)... try to keep to the same count cos they CAN match the count to the beat !!!!!!

And that's propably where back-leading starts !!!!! Right in your first beginner class !!!!!

So the solution surely must be to do the move to

1. physical instructions

then

2. to a count with numbers only (slow count then faster count)

then

3. to a count with numbers only in time to music (slow track first and then a faster one*)

* and if you went even further with this you could only play music before the end of taxi time that suited beginners' ability - I am sure most djs do this of course without the taxis mentoning it every other week

BTW I did a cabaret once where the teachers didn't know how many counts there were in certain moves/sequences and was told to "listen to the music"... I nearly went off my head !!!!!!! With numbers you can do the moves to ANY music and indeed to NO music !!!! the same perfect way EVERY time !!!!

Wxxx

**Piglet** · 4th-April-2005, 12:47 PM

I think you've got a good point, as I used to count 8 beats as I was practising some of the moves in my head - works for first move as well as the yo yo and the octopus. It made sense to me, I just came to the conclusion that the teachers must have a better understanding of something than I did. But it worked for me - maybe its a follower thing?

**drathzel** · 4th-April-2005, 12:51 PM

I have to agree with you wendy. i remember i was helping in a taxi class with someone who counted the beats instead of the script to see if it helped. The class got the beats and there were only a few mistakes of people forgeting what they are doing. In taxi classes you often dont get a chance to practice to music so this may help.

Wendy · 4th-April-2005, 12:59 PM

Of course it only helps if it's made clear that the numbers match beats in the music.... and now I think about it, I don't explain that in my class.

That reminds me of dancing with a beginner who didn't get the timing thing so I said BEAT - BEAT - BEAT - BEAT* as we danced.. he got it !!!

* I told this story to Graham when we were in holiday in France (and only realised after several "BEAT"s that I'd been saying "bla bla bla (in English) - "male body part" (in French) over and over in earshot of the gite owners !!!!

Biggest blushing session of my life cos they knew I could speak fluent French !!!!

Wxxx

azande · 4th-April-2005, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drathzel

I have to agree with you wendy. i remember i was helping in a taxi class with someone who counted the beats instead of the script to see if it helped. The class got the beats and there were only a few mistakes of people forgeting what they are doing. In taxi classes you often dont get a chance to practice to music so this may help.

If you liosten carefully, the key words the teacher uses (especially in a beginner class) are "Beat words", ie they indicate on what beat you should be and in which position.

Wendy · 4th-April-2005, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azande

If you listen carefully, the key words the teacher uses (especially in a beginner class) are "Beat words", ie they indicate on what beat you should be and in which position.

ok .. possibly.. but it's a bit like this....

"On beat one you step back pushing gently against the lady's hand. On beat two you pull her towards you, raising your hand to your left shoulder and then as you push her out on beat three, the lady pivots on her left foot....."

OK I'm exaggerating cos that's my job but you can see how the beat thing gets lost ???

With
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8

it gets lost less...

And I promise to listen more carefully although Edinburgh is quite a long way away

Wx

**ducasi** · 4th-April-2005, 01:21 PM

As a beginner lead, I guess I might be able to contribute here...

First, as far as I can remember, both my teacher and taxi-teacher(s)

do do a count through of beats as we go through each move.

They will tell us how many beats each move is, count through them as they're demoing them, count as we do them, use "beat words", all that good stuff.

I, as a learning lead, think I'm getting it right when it comes to actually dancing these moves, but you'd have to ask my partners.

That said, any talk of numbers goes in one ear and out the other. Why do I need to know that the first move has 7 beats?* Why do I need to know that I wrap on the 3rd beat of the basket?* Just so long as I'm doing it right, it shouldn't matter, should it?

* Would getting these numbers wrong help prove my point?

Cheers!

spindr · 4th-April-2005, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wendy

I feel that this is not really explained in number terms (some teachers do this more than others) and it's certainly never explained that one count matches one beat in the music..

)

That might be because 1 count, matches 2 beats in the music

SpinDr.

Wendy · 4th-April-2005, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spindr

That might be because 1 count, matches 2 beats in the music

SpinDr.

Sorry !!!!! Of course !!!! Hope everyone knows what I mean though !!!!!

And just before some smart a*re says "in freestyle you can take as many beats as you like to do a move" I'll say it first !!!!!

Wxxxx

CJ · 4th-April-2005, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azande

If you listen carefully,

Is that Wendy's strong suit??

Wendy · 4th-April-2005, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ducasi

Why do I need to know that the first move has 7 beats?* Why do I need to know that I wrap on the 3rd beat of the basket?* Just so long as I'm doing it right, it shouldn't matter, should it?

Thanks for your thoughts.. always very wlecome !!!!

I don't think it matters that a whole move takes 8/16 beats (it might later when you want to end a song in a particular postion or something .. dunno,... I'm not that good at leading to know

).. but it DOES matter if your partner is expecting you to turn out on 3 and and you do it on 2 or on a half beat - even worse !!!!!... A beginner is learning the moves/beats as you are (even although she is meant to be following).. if you don't want women to back-lead then you might as well learn it to the "correct" counts etc at first.. and then when you know the basics you can add pauses and variations that will make beginner women either squeal with delight or think are getting it WRONG and be terrifed !!! Beginner women can't follow yet - they are learning moves too and want to get it "right"...

If a lady took 2.5 beats to do a turn/return you'd know how awful it can feel when it's "wrong" (and I'm talking timing-wise not movement-wise.... (jeez some guys come out in a rash when I take longer than I "should" even although I'm keeping to the beat !!!!!)

Is something like marching not taught to numbers ??? I am just thinking of Clive Dunn in Dad's Army... and imagining someone singing in a choir at the wrong time.....

Wxxx

**Graham** · 4th-April-2005, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ceroc Jock

Is that Wendy's strong suit??

Wendy · 4th-April-2005, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ceroc Jock

Is that Wendy's strong suit??

I never listen at CEROC cos I am always too near the speakers or dancing to the great and wonderful music or shouting at the dj for playing my favourite tracks when I'm taxi-ing

... oh sh*t what's my excuse in the real world

Wxxx

Wendy · 4th-April-2005, 02:20 PM

Perfect timing Panther boy.... shame your danc.. no I won't go there !!!

(spot Panther Boy in a cabaret)

**Piglet** · 4th-April-2005, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wendy

I never listen
... oh sh*t what's my excuse in the real world

You have maybe got a male brain -

Can loan you a great (easy) book to read about it all:

Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps: How We're Different and What to Do About It
Allan Pease, Barbara Pease, Trevor Dolby

azande · 4th-April-2005, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wendy

ok .. possibly.. but it's a bit like this....

"On beat one you step back pushing gently against the lady's hand. On beat two you pull her towards you, raising your hand to your left shoulder and then as you push her out on beat three, the lady pivots on her left foot....."

OK I'm exaggerating cos that's my job but you can see how the beat thing gets lost ???

With
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8

it gets lost less...

And I promise to listen more carefully although Edinburgh is quite a long way away

Wx

Actually, it is (if I remember correctly

):

Step back
In
Out
Elbow
Turn
Back
Return
Back

Wendy · 4th-April-2005, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piglet

You have maybe got a male brain -

Can loan you a great (easy) book to read about it all:

Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps: How We're Different and What to Do About It
Allan Pease, Barbara Pease, Trevor Dolby

I DO have a male brain.. well it's a female brain trying to be a male brain...

no tears.. boys don't cry....

And then there's round pegs and holes and all sort of stuff.... too hard...

and then living wth a guy who can listen....

Wxxx

**Piglet** · 4th-April-2005, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wendy

I DO have a male brain..

Me too!

tsh · 4th-April-2005, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wendy

but it DOES matter if your partner is expecting you to turn out on 3 and and you do it on 2 or on a half beat - even worse !!!!!...

I'm not sure I agree with this sentiment...
Each part of the move is supposed to be lead. The turn out shouldn't happen spontaneously just because 3 beats have passed since the start of a move that looks like a yo-yo. Even worse, the 5th beat might be a turn, or it might be a block. I'll agree that it's probably harder to follow if the lead is not on the beat, and there may be some scope for assisting here, but fundamentally, the timing is down to the lead. I would also disagree that the routine being taught is at all coreographed. The intention is to teach people to freestyle, not to be able to remember some specific routine.

Sean

Wendy · 4th-April-2005, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piglet

Me too!

I have a soft side too...

I JUST DON'T SHOW IT VERY OFTEN !!!!!!!!

Wxxx

4th-April-2005, 12:41 PM	#1 (permalink)
Wendy Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Versailles (yeah, in the chateau itself !) Posts: 1,458 Rep Power: 4 Reputation Total: 270	Dancing by numbers.... This has been inspired by the back-leading thread but since I couldn't get to sleep on Saturday thinking about it, I thought it deserved its own thread !!!! Right ! I hope this is a biggie cos it feels like one to me !!!! Let's take the yoyo... this might not be perfect CEROC script but you'll get my drift) Step back on 1 Step in (hand to shoulder) 2 Push her out 3 Step round to face L shape arms 4 Turn her 5 Step back 6 Return 7 Step back 8 Well something like that.. I feel that this is not really explained in number terms (some teachers do this more than others) and it's certainly never explained that one count matches one beat in the music.. ) So... the class progresses with instructions of each movement as above but without the numbers... and the teacher says " to a count 5,6,7,8" (which must be Greek to some people BTW as it's not explained) and then the instructions are given to a regularish beat but still no numbers... (btw when choreopgraphed routines are taught (properly IMHO) you learn the numbers once you know the movements.. so you can do the moves to a slow count and then to a faster count and THEN to the music and it could be to ANY music cos the counts match the beats.. obviously to a choreaographed routine the moves MATCH the music.. and when you think about it, the 4 beginners moves taught at CEROC make up a mini choreographed routine right ????)....still with me ?????.. Then when the music starts in freestyle and no-one is shouting out the movements in time to the music, the men get the timing of the movements (the yoyo here) very wrong !!!! They do all the movements but they rush the bit between counts 3 and 4 cos they don't know that it takes a whole BEAT to go to the shoulder and then a whole BEAT to push her out.. and then the whole things falls apart... and of course our sweet lady beginners who HAVE picked up the count thing (maybe that is a woman thing or maybe we have more experience of learning dance routines cos even as wee girls we are trying to be Kylie or whatever!!)... try to keep to the same count cos they CAN match the count to the beat !!!!!! And that's propably where back-leading starts !!!!! Right in your first beginner class !!!!! So the solution surely must be to do the move to 1. physical instructions then 2. to a count with numbers only (slow count then faster count) then 3. to a count with numbers only in time to music (slow track first and then a faster one) and if you went even further with this you could only play music before the end of taxi time that suited beginners' ability - I am sure most djs do this of course without the taxis mentoning it every other week BTW I did a cabaret once where the teachers didn't know how many counts there were in certain moves/sequences and was told to "listen to the music"... I nearly went off my head !!!!!!! With numbers you can do the moves to ANY music and indeed to NO music !!!! the same perfect way EVERY time !!!! Wxxx Last edited by Wendy : 4th-April-2005 at 12:47 PM.

4th-April-2005, 12:47 PM	#2 (permalink)
Piglet Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: In Puppy Heaven Posts: 5,218 Rep Power: 3 Reputation Total: 857	Re: Dancing by numbers.... I think you've got a good point, as I used to count 8 beats as I was practising some of the moves in my head - works for first move as well as the yo yo and the octopus. It made sense to me, I just came to the conclusion that the teachers must have a better understanding of something than I did. But it worked for me - maybe its a follower thing?

4th-April-2005, 12:51 PM	#3 (permalink)
drathzel Ceroc N.I. Franchise Owner Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Bangor, Northern Ireland Posts: 7,388 Rep Power: 4 Reputation Total: 1297	Re: Dancing by numbers.... I have to agree with you wendy. i remember i was helping in a taxi class with someone who counted the beats instead of the script to see if it helped. The class got the beats and there were only a few mistakes of people forgeting what they are doing. In taxi classes you often dont get a chance to practice to music so this may help. __________________ I pulled Under Pars groin! But they werent my knickers

4th-April-2005, 12:59 PM	#4 (permalink)
Wendy Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Versailles (yeah, in the chateau itself !) Posts: 1,458 Rep Power: 4 Reputation Total: 270	Re: Dancing by numbers.... Of course it only helps if it's made clear that the numbers match beats in the music.... and now I think about it, I don't explain that in my class. That reminds me of dancing with a beginner who didn't get the timing thing so I said BEAT - BEAT - BEAT - BEAT* as we danced.. he got it !!! * I told this story to Graham when we were in holiday in France (and only realised after several "BEAT"s that I'd been saying "bla bla bla (in English) - "male body part" (in French) over and over in earshot of the gite owners !!!! Biggest blushing session of my life cos they knew I could speak fluent French !!!! Wxxx

4th-April-2005, 01:21 PM	#7 (permalink)
ducasi Lovely Moderator Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Glasgow Posts: 9,370 Rep Power: 6 Reputation Total: 3173	Re: Dancing by numbers.... As a beginner lead, I guess I might be able to contribute here... First, as far as I can remember, both my teacher and taxi-teacher(s) do do a count through of beats as we go through each move. They will tell us how many beats each move is, count through them as they're demoing them, count as we do them, use "beat words", all that good stuff. I, as a learning lead, think I'm getting it right when it comes to actually dancing these moves, but you'd have to ask my partners. That said, any talk of numbers goes in one ear and out the other. Why do I need to know that the first move has 7 beats?* Why do I need to know that I wrap on the 3rd beat of the basket?* Just so long as I'm doing it right, it shouldn't matter, should it? * Would getting these numbers wrong help prove my point? Cheers! __________________ Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

4th-April-2005, 02:20 PM	#14 (permalink)
Wendy Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Versailles (yeah, in the chateau itself !) Posts: 1,458 Rep Power: 4 Reputation Total: 270	Re: Dancing by numbers.... Perfect timing Panther boy.... shame your danc.. no I won't go there !!! (spot Panther Boy in a cabaret) Last edited by Wendy : 4th-April-2005 at 02:23 PM.

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