Helping new dancers

[Martin]

I thought I would open the topic as to "Should people in the line up try to coach new dancers, whilst the class is going on"

This came about as my son has now done his first 2 classes

I did not offer any prior instruction, but left him to do the classes and see how he got on and how he enjoyed it.
Fortunately he loves it...


The first class he attended was a "normal" evening where he got the beginners lesson and then the Consolidation (towards freestyle, progression) class. He was then asked to dance by some of the more advanced girls and the dance guide (beginners assistant, taxi dancer), and managed to do the whole song, in time with no stopping . Thanks girls for your patience and kindness.

At the second class, we tried out a specialist beginners venue - that night was intromediate night ( a slightly harder beginners class with intermediate [for UK people, that means "normal"] footwork. The teacher was GREAT , as were the door staff.


Now to the main question of "coaching from within the lines". 3 of the ladies decided to "offer advice whilst the teacher was talking" to my son, bearing in mind these people were IMHO rising beginners, or lower intermediates - 2 out of the 3 advice givers, struggling to follow well (but probably blissfully unaware of the fact). [In my sons words "they weren't followers at all, they were more leading"]

It p*ssed me off that they wanted to offer advice whilst the teacher was talking, also the advice I heard (as I was joining in next to him, was mostly "misleading".

This is polite speak to say, "can you just shut up and give him a chance to listen to the teacher".

OK, so now you know my pet HATE , students who insist on "helping" whilst the class is going on, having not first asked if feedback is required.

SO - I asked my son if he found it helpful being coached "in line" his response was "no, all it did was distract me from the teachers teaching", "I could not hear the teacher, but did not want to be rude to the person talking to me, although it wasn't helpful".

My son has read this, and sais, that he finds it to be an accurate summary.


So over to you....

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Martin

It p*ssed me off that they wanted to offer advice whilst the teacher was talking,

So you'll be wanting to sign up for this thread then, won't you?

[Martin]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

So you'll be wanting to sign up for this thread then, won't you?

Good try to advertise your thread - not quite the same topic though.

This one being specific about "in line helpers"

[Minnie M]

Thank YOU for your help when I started

We didn't have taxi dancers in Brighton when I started, the more advanced dancers always asked us newbies to dance and helped us too, plus the teacher (Graham Le Clerc) made sure that he danced with every beginner at least once a week.

Brighton (in those days) had the best crop of dancers in the country (especially the girls) all the London dancers used to come south to dance with us - ahhhhh..... those were the days

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Martin

Good try to advertise your thread - not quite the same topic though.

This one being specific about "in line helpers"

Not really. Just trying to point out (subtly - silly me!) that there are more important things to get annoyed with in life than other people just trying to be helpful.

Not meaning to be rude (I mean that!) but I have to ask whether, after only two classes is your son in any position to turn down help from practically anyone? Perhaps if the ladies he were dancing with were "struggling to follow well", there might be other reasons?

[LMC]

In line can sometimes be useful if it's done nicely and tactfully. BUT not if the "helper" is talking over the teacher.

From a woman's point of view - as a woman who is beyond the "absolute beginner" stage but nowhere near good enough to do any but the most basic 'coaching', I have noticed that some guys get terribly frustrated if they don't know what to do, and *do* look to you for instruction/guidance. So it's hard to know what to do for the best - in that position, I tend to say the absolute bare minimum to get us moving.

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Perhaps if the ladies he were dancing with were "struggling to follow well", there might be other reasons?

Someone suggested to me on another thread that I followed what was led - which would be the best way of showing a guy "how not to do it". That's all very well, but some of them look at you reproachfully like it's your fault

None of this excuses women talking over the teacher though. In addition - from this thread:

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

And there's usually a guy who thinks that me saying move on 27 ladies is a signal for him to show his current partner the whole routine in slow motion and doesn't notice the log jam of women waiting for him to release his partner

The same applies to women who are coaching beginner guys - there are women WAITING behind you - MOVE!!!

to taxi dancers

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Martin

This came about as my son has now done his first 2 classes

Yay! A second-generation MJ-er

Originally Posted by Martin

Now to the main question of "coaching from within the lines". 3 of the ladies decided to "offer advice whilst the teacher was talking"

Yes, that annoys me too - probably not on my Top 5 Annoyances (there's a lot of competition ), but in the Top 10.

Ladies (and guys), giving any advice during a class is (90% of the time) a Bad Idea.

Unless you're being physically harmed by yanking, save advice until after the class. And never talk over the teacher; talking's what the teacher is paid for. If you have a burning urge to explain / teach, become a taxi or a teacher.

If you have to correct / show something, I also think it's easier for a lead to demonstrate the correct way, than for a follow to try to explain it.

[LMC]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

If you have to correct / show something, I also think it's easier for a lead to demonstrate the correct way, than for a follow to try to explain it.

But if it's a choice between standing there like a pair of lemons while a complete beginner looks piteously at you, or smiling encouragingly and saying "semicircle to the left.... (contd. p94)"...

As a complete beginner guy, which would you prefer - a woman who just stands there looking at you smiling expectantly, or someone who at least tries to get you moving???

[drathzel]

Originally Posted by Martin

Now to the main question of "coaching from within the lines". 3 of the ladies decided to "offer advice whilst the teacher was talking" to my son, bearing in mind these people were IMHO rising beginners, or lower intermediates - 2 out of the 3 advice givers, struggling to follow well (but probably blissfully unaware of the fact). [In my sons words "they weren't followers at all, they were more leading"]

I have seen this happening! It seems to me that some of the beginners/new intermdiates who think they are great and in a position to "give advice", should be the ones to take it! And no one should be giving advice while the teacher is speaking, if i am asked a question during class (on duty or off) I try and explain it when the teacher is not speaking, altho sometimes the beginner wants advice and doesnt always want to listen to what the teacher says as its not directly to them! If they do this i just explain that there is a consolidation class for all their questions and to go over the moves after the teacher has finished his/her class!

(oh god its like being at school again... no talking while the teacher is )

[bigdjiver]

I believe that most people come to Ceroc to enjoy themselves. Learning to dance is a secondary consideration. In my opinion it is far better if partner is showing a desire to be helpful and supporting, even if they are sometimes getting it wrong.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by NewKid

As a complete beginner guy, which would you prefer - a woman who just stands there looking at you smiling expectantly, or someone who at least tries to get you moving???

Hmmm, you know, I realize this is supposed to be a loaded question, but I'm still tempted to go for option 1.

Simply because that rams home the lesson of "You're the lead, you do something or I'm going to just stand here all day".

Rather than the lesson of "Oh, OK, if you get stuck us follower will always help you out and show you what to do, so don't worry about it".

Maybe the best generic teaching method for a follower is to simply smile expectantly...

[LMC]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Hmmm, you know, I realize this is supposed to be a loaded question, but I'm still tempted to go for option 1.

Simply because that rams home the lesson of "You're the lead, you do something or I'm going to just stand here all day".

Rather than the lesson of "Oh, OK, if you get stuck us follower will always help you out and show you what to do, so don't worry about it".

Maybe the best generic teaching method for a follower is to simply smile expectantly...

I agree, and I have actually taken the 'just stand there and smile expectantly' approach. But have you any idea how difficult and embarrassing it is to do that, especially with someone who is obviously uncomfortable and nervous?

I would also submit that a complete beginner would rather be "helped" than stand there doing nothing while "everyone else" appears to be doing something (as bigdjiver said). < DA mode nicked from Gus > Some men seem to have sensitive little egos and don't want to be seen to be the only ones standing there helplessly < /mode >

Also, as drazthel said, some beginners seem to want personal tuition - I would rather they listened to the teacher - there's a good reason for them being up on stage while I'm in line.

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Martin

Now to the main question of "coaching from within the lines". 3 of the ladies decided to "offer advice whilst the teacher was talking" to my son ~[In my sons words "they weren't followers at all, they were more leading"]
~
This is polite speak to say, "can you just shut up and give him a chance to listen to the teacher".

In reverse order: let him say "can you just shut up and give me a chance to listen to the teacher" - you've introduced him to the dance and let him find his own way with the beginners class {}; can't you let him find his own way with this as well?

I found the same thing when I started; ladies wanting to show how they want to be led through the move and so leading me. Especially when I was hesitant or wanted to try a variation.
Hesitant leads will force a lady to anticipate more to compensate for an un-clear lead.
You may also find that there are elements of self-preservation from the ladies in there: trying to get the new lead not to be too over-eager and haul them about the dance floor.
They may in the past have been offered advice from a dancer in the que in a similar way; so accept it as the 'norm'
He may have been doing something that the ladies of a limited ability felt was wrong and offered what they saw as an appropriate solution (Personally I would take in a 'diagnoisis' from a lady, but any 'solutions' proposed would be taken under care.)

There are so many reasons that this situation may arrise, I would caution telling them simply to "shut up" - perhaps ask if what they are trying to say is more important than what the teacher is trying to say: it might be.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by NewKid

< DA mode nicked from Gus > Some men seem to have sensitive little egos and don't want to be seen to be the only ones standing there helplessly < /mode >

These are probably exactly the ones who need the hardest lessons. Plus, you get InnerBitchFeeding points, so that's a win-win for you
(Unless you, ahem, like the look of them of course, the obvious line about "personal tuition" then comes to mind
)

Of course, you may turn off a lot of beginners from MJ, but you're not on a commission

[LMC]

Originally Posted by Gadget

Hesitant leads will force a lady to anticipate more to compensate for an un-clear lead.

A first-timer may be convinced that he is doing "the same" as the teacher - they can't necessarily see the tension or the finer nuances of the positioning - *I* certainly couldn't when I started out. So surely, unless the lead is *really* non-existent, following the "intention" is more encouraging than just standing there? If I was a guy, I would get incredibly frustrated if my perception was that I was following what was going on on stage but "nothing's happening".

Take a push spin or ceroc spin f'r'instance - some first-timer men are nervous about 'pushing' too hard - which actually makes it very difficult to get round, as you don't have the momentum, especially in class slo-mo. So once I have that tentative little nudge, I tend to spin badly (well, I spin badly anyway), then if appropriate, tell them afterwards that they can use a little more 'shove', as I won't break .

And of course, tell 'em when they have it right - I danced with a 3rd timer last night who will I think, one day, be very good. So I told him he was leading well. And then completely "upset him" by following the lead when he got it wrong - just to make the point (we had a little chat about that in the freestyle, he seemed happy).

Sorry I'm going OT a bit - but I'm trying to give the woman's point of view in all this. I agree that people should shut up and let teacher talk.

[LMC]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

These are probably exactly the ones who need the hardest lessons.

Yeah, but they already probably think that everyone is looking at how c**p they are - you know how self-conscious we all were as newbies! Maybe I'm just too kind-hearted? I tend to keep the "I'm just going to stand here until you do something" approach for freestyle now.

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Plus, you get InnerBitchFeeding points, so that's a win-win for you

Tempting.....

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Of course, you may turn off a lot of beginners from MJ, but you're not on a commission

.... but there's not enough men as it is!

[Lynn]

IMO it totally depend on what the 'problem' is. Backleading for a hesitant lead isn't good - but what if you are in a class and the teacher is talking you through the move from stage and the guy uses the wrong hand or turns in the completely wrong direction and isn't aware of this?* If you say nothing then the guy will continue doing that part of the move wrong as he is now concentrating on learning the next bit. You have to say something (gently) to point that out.

And I times I do actually say - 'I won't move till you lead me' and smile encouragingly, with an even bigger smile when he gets it at least partly right.

*Applies to women too, I've done it, not so good with left and right sometimes!