A little learning...

[LMC]

... is a dangerous thing. (Good week, bad week Mark III)

I've noticed now that if I'm at a venue with a non-sprung floor, my feet hurt by the end of the night - 'cos I'm spending more time dancing - both 'cos I'm generally more confident asking people when it's a venue I know with 'faces' I know, and I get asked to dance more often I get more repeat dances in an evening at my regular venues too, which is a fantastic compliment.

Last night's high points:
- some fab dances with some fun people
- being told by an experienced dancer in intermediate class that I was "light and easy to control"
- cheering someone up in class by being his first partner to do the 'lady steal' move right (after about five rotations!)
- confusing SilverFox (although only for about 0.002 seconds ) by applying the same lady steal move on him (had been dying to practise it on someone who'd missed the class ) - thanks for the dance one of my best of the evening

Last night's low points have unfortunately left me in a wee bit of a sombre mood this morning...

- a couple of guys with a 'death grip' - I did explain that I can't turn without breaking some fingers (theirs or mine!) if they hang on like a vice. I got a yanker too - my wrist really hurt after that one

- the partner who was trying to lead dips on a crowded dance floor, badly. The worst one was when he told me a dip was coming and he actually meant a lean question would it be true to say that if it's a dip, the follower is going 'backwards' and if it's a lean they are going sideways? - 'cos when he said 'dip', I of course started to lean back, and of course there was no 'support' there.... (no harm done, but could have been nasty).

- the really sweaty beginner/intermediate who wanted to practise the dip we'd done in intermediate class. When I said "sorry, don't want to do dips", he questioned "why?". I told him "Sorry, you are just too sweaty" (his T-shirt was drenched and the sweat was literally running down his face). I felt bad, but a number of us girls have been b****ing about him for long enough, he had to be told. He was obviously upset and dashed off at the end of the track, but it was too noisy on the middle of the floor to discuss properly and I couldn't find him later to apologise for hurting his feelings and 'explain' - I will make a point of doing that the next time I see him. Apart from that issue, I'd seen him dip someone and it was *scary*

- while cooling off, watching a first-timer trying to do the 'dip' move taught in intermediate class in freestyle. The look of horror on my face was such that a passing complete stranger was concerned enough to ask me what was wrong! I caught the said first-timer as he came off the floor - we had exchanged chat in class previously - and pleaded with him not to do that again until he had more experience - for his own safety as well as that of his partner. I had actually pointed him out to an off-duty taxi dancer during the class, so hopefully someone with a bit more authority encouraged him to not run before he can walk!

I will be e-mailing the franchisee about the dangerous behaviour. The lessons at this venue are always good fun and generally well-taught. However, I think there could be more concentration on ceroc basics during the beginners lesson (hand hold, etc) and there was insufficient emphasis on 'safety' techniques for the dip - and no mention of etiquette. I feel that there could also be more encouragement at the end of beginner classes for beginners to do the consolidation class. I will also be suggesting that the taxi dancers cover 'personal hygiene' during consolidation classes - "towels and clean shirts are your friends".

I've gone on at great and boring length here (as usual - but it's my thread, so there . I guess last night is the first time that I have really questioned the ceroc methodology - yes, it's great to get people dancing ASAP - but there seems to be an element of 'house built on sand' with too much emphasis on 'fun' and 'more moves' and not enough on safety/technique/etiquette. We all know it takes effort to become good at anything - but the impression I'm increasingly getting from ceroc teaching is "you can be a good dancer with *no* effort" - the result being a whole swathe of average dancers who think they are good because of 'time served' and a few Really Good Dancers - a tiny minority of whom are naturals and/or have experience of other dance styles, have done further research, practised fundamentals, attended workshops, made an effort 'outside' regular evenings (pick all that apply). Fundamentals might be "boring" but will create better dancers in the long term - I wish I'd been taught some of them sooner as I'd have 'em down by now instead of still struggling ( BIG thank you to some of the lovely people on here who have helped - 'cos the lessons usually haven't!)

By the way you lot - me being anal is all *your* fault... this forum and the info on it and dancing with and talking to many of you has been a real eye-opener - one day I hope to be "better than average" - thank you all

[Damien]

It was so nice to read all the positive things you took from your class. I also wish classes didn’t just concentrate on moves but also gave more help on some essentials such as style, interpretation, safety, etiquette and common sense issues. Also agree that some people on the floor are downright dangerous and sometimes ill-mannered but sometimes it feels that there is a kind of ceroc elitism that looks down on those that are just in it for the fun. I for one am very keen to try out different dance styles and to improve my dancing to my full potential but sometimes I’m increasingly coming round to accept that not everyone feels the same. Please try not to worry about every dangerous bad mannered imbercile – thankfully they are usually a small minority.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by NewKid

When I said "sorry, don't want to do dips", he questioned "why?". I told him "Sorry, you are just too sweaty" (his T-shirt was drenched and the sweat was literally running down his face). I felt bad, but a number of us girls have been b****ing about him for long enough, he had to be told. He was obviously upset and dashed off at the end of the track...

Full marks for telling him. Perhaps he just ran off to dry off in the gents?

Originally Posted by NewKid

but the impression I'm increasingly getting from ceroc teaching is "you can be a good dancer with *no* effort"

I thought the Ceroc thing was "you (anyone) can be a dancer, with little effort." Nobody said anything about 'good', or 'no' effort.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by NewKid

When I said "sorry, don't want to do dips", he questioned "why?". I told him "Sorry, you are just too sweaty"

Good for you - someone's got to bite the bullet with these things. I'd much rather be told about sweatiness / smelliness up front, then I can at least do something about it.

Originally Posted by NewKid

However, I think there could be more concentration on ceroc basics during the beginners lesson (hand hold, etc) and there was insufficient emphasis on 'safety' techniques for the dip - and no mention of etiquette.

Sounds like you've encapsulated several years of Ceroc development in 3 months. Scary...

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by NewKid

Would it be true to say that if it's a dip, the follower is going 'backwards' and if it's a lean they are going sideways?

I think so. That said, following verbal leads for such moves is probably a bad thing.

Originally Posted by NewKid

Fundamentals might be "boring" but will create better dancers in the long term - I wish I'd been taught some of them sooner as I'd have 'em down by now instead of still struggling.

The received wisdom is that you can learn fundamentals for ever - there's never a point when you "have 'em down". How much of this is just a way to sell dance lessons, I don't know.

Originally Posted by NewKid

I've noticed now that if I'm at a venue with a non-sprung floor, my feet hurt by the end of the night.

You may find this happens less if you wear shoes with more cushioning, and/or try to be lighter on your feet. Conversely, I tend towards stomping around, and I get achy thighs as a result.

[LMC]

Originally Posted by Damien

Please try not to worry about every dangerous bad mannered imbercile – thankfully they are usually a small minority.

Minority or not, it's the "dangerous" which is the main concern - apparently there was an injury at that venue the previous week where a lady required stitches near her eyebrow - I wasn't there that night, hope she is OK and not too scarred physically or emotionally. There was a lot of scary stuff going on last night - I've e-mailed the franchisee to ask for more emphasis on the safety, which I felt was "mentioned in passing" only.

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Full marks for telling him. Perhaps he just ran off to dry off in the gents?

For the best part of an hour? - didn't see him for the rest of the evening! I felt really mean actually - in retrospect I should have refused the dance,and said instead "can I talk to you?", and taken him off on one side where I could have been a bit more tactful, as the middle of the dance floor was not the best place to try to deliver such feedback. Unfortunately I did it slightly 'on impulse' when he tried to lead the dip. But I will make a point of talking to him again next time I see him (and apologising for possibly being a bit abrupt).

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

I thought the Ceroc thing was "you (anyone) can be a dancer, with little effort." Nobody said anything about 'good', or 'no' effort.

Sorry, didn't realise that my slightly jaundiced opinion there was so close to the "official" quote, eek. I don't have a problem with that in principle - dancing should be "accessible" to anyone. But there was some seriously terrifying behaviour on that floor last night...

More emphasis on technique/safety and less on "number of moves" in lessons might be a good thing. More emphasis on "beginners, *please* take advantage of review classes" would be an even better thing. This does happen at some venues/with some teachers - but seems inconsistent. If someone only goes once a week to the same venue, with the same teacher, who teaches well and is great fun, but who treats safety rather casually (IMO, and it's not a one-off, and I have e-mailed the franchisee about it), then unsafe behaviour will creep in at that venue.

Sometimes it seems that there is too much emphasis on "moves" rather than "dancing". I had a slightly bewildering dance with one "new intermediate" who got confused because I *wasn't* backleading and got all anxious because he kept messing things up - I told him (I hope truthfully) that most women would rather have a few moves led well than a whole variety led badly, and (definitely truthfully) that if I have a dance with a really good lead, I couldn't tell you what moves were done during the track - just that I had a fantastic dance .

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by NewKid

Sometimes it seems that there is too much emphasis on "moves" rather than "dancing".

This is the age-old complaint about CTA teaching. On the other side of the coin though, if things were that bad, none of us would learn to dance at all. And you've got the message already, after only how many weeks?

[LMC]

Sorry for consecutive posts due to these coming in while I was typing previous essay

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Good for you - someone's got to bite the bullet with these things. I'd much rather be told about sweatiness / smelliness up front, then I can at least do something about it.

Oooooh, that's some positive feedback I can give hm actually - he may have been wringing but he wasn't smelly

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Sounds like you've encapsulated several years of Ceroc development in 3 months. Scary...

Thanks, but the should be applied to the numerous lovely people on here who have given me so much advice in person and from posting sensible stuff - I know I'm noisy, but I spend lots of time lurking in the dusty ole archives too - and some stuff makes sense now that didn't then

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

And you've got the message already, after only how many weeks?

Er, 11 to be precise.

If I get it, anyone can/should be able to? I don't think I'm that special and don't think I'll ever be more than a competent dancer (Nicky and Robert won't ever have to worry about me )

My signature line on another forum is "I get it and I'm blonde, what's your excuse?"

[Chef]

Originally Posted by NewKid

Really Good Dancers - a tiny minority of whom are naturals and/or have experience of other dance styles, have done further research, practised fundamentals, attended workshops, made an effort 'outside' regular evenings (pick all that apply). Fundamentals might be "boring" but will create better dancers in the long term - I wish I'd been taught some of them sooner as I'd have 'em down by now instead of still struggling ( BIG thank you to some of the lovely people on here who have helped - 'cos the lessons usually haven't!)

By the way you lot - me being anal is all *your* fault... this forum and the info on it and dancing with and talking to many of you has been a real eye-opener - one day I hope to be "better than average" - thank you all

Newkid. You are really going to do just fine. I have always found that when the student is ready they will go and find the teacher. You seem to have bypassed the first three years of my MJ experience and good on you. You have a great attitude to finding the right thing to do and working at it. There are some that think MJ is only about having fun. I feel that if I can do it well then it is even more fun than doing it badly.

You will probably find that some ballroom and ballet classes will be very useful to you.

I think that you will always feel like you are struggling because I think you are like me in that you have the feeling of "I don't want to dance better than anyone else, I just want to dance better than me"(quote from Mikhail Baryshnikov). Whatever you achieve or master you will want more.

It is great to come across someone with your attitude. One day I hope to dance with you.

[LMC]

Thanks Chef

Tonight: same franchise, different venue/teacher, new bit of script from the teacher encouraging people *not* to do intermediate class unless they are fully confident with all beginners moves - to franchise for prompt 'action'. Last night's demo also happened to be there so it was really nice to have a chat over all the stuff I was whining about up there ^^^ - they were all squeamish about the hygiene thing so I was mean and said "I've only been dancing 3 months, if I can get over the embarrassment and talk to an individual, surely you guys can mention it as a general point from stage...."

Great night tonight - not too busy but enough dancers for 'variety' - lovely!

[MartinHarper]

I've probably mentioned it before, but I was once told the secret of teaching dance. Posting it here would normally destroy the secret, but fortunately I have zero credibility as a dance teacher, so it should be safe.

Anyways, it's a three step process:
1) Teach moves that don't require technique. Students pick these up quickly, so they get enthused and come back.
2) Teach moves that do require technique. Students have no technique, so struggle on these.
3) Teach technique, with the promise that it'll make the hard moves easier to learn.

MJ is more of a two step process:
1) Teach moves that don't require technique.
2) Teach more moves that don't require technique.

It's seductive, because once a leader knows a bunch of moves that don't require technique... why bother with technique? Why not concentrate on other stuff - musicality, style, dips, double trouble, body control - whatever? These are all obviously great things to learn, whereas the benefits from better technique are kinda nebulous. As a follower, if you can cope with 95% of the stuff on the dance floor, why bother with the 5% that would require more effort? Guys will compensate by not leading that stuff.

It's hard to argue that MJ is wrong and other dances are right. At least MJ is honest: it teaches you moves that you can learn, with the expectation that after ten minutes teaching and a few runs in freestyle, you could have it down "good enough for jive". In comparison, other dances resemble a seedy bait-and-switch operation: they start off teaching moves, and everything moves along smoothly. Then they switch to this technique stuff that takes years to master - by which time the hapless punter has bought into it.

I'm sure I had some kinda point when I started this post, but it seems to have fizzled out somewhere. Ahh well.

[Russell Saxby]

Originally Posted by Chef

One day I hope to dance with you.

Just maybe not at Hipsters, unless of course Newkid you are lucky enough to pass the suggested audition

Russell

[LMC]

Originally Posted by Russell Saxby

Just maybe not at Hipsters, unless of course Newkid you are lucky enough to pass the suggested audition

Oh well, guess I'll be going to Cheshunt again then

Interesting Martin...

The problem with the MJ "two step" process you outlined is that many people seem to base self-assessment of their abilities on the length of time they have been dancing rather than their true level - which can lead to over-confidence in leading potentially dangerous dips/drops. Witness that we *all* ask "how long have you been dancing?" to get an idea of people's 'level' (in my case, it works to my advantage: people keep telling me I'm fantastic for only three months, but as I've been going 4 times a week that probably equates to 6-12 months for less obsessive types )

I like the 3-step process, which is basically what happened/is happening to me - I learn fast, but really struggled (and still do) with some moves because no-one had ever explained 'frame' to me properly - I follow and don't backlead, but all the lead's energy was soaked up in my spaghetti arms so some moves were *never* going to work. I don't remember 'frame' being adequately explained in any lesson or workshop I've been to - but it only took ChrisA and DavidB a total of about 10-15 minutes between them on different occasions to get the basic concepts into my thick head - after that, it's practice.

So I'm concentrating on improving my frame now, still a way to go, but well well well, suddenly some of the first move variations which include a ballroom hold/tango steps/other dance steps actually *do* work... and I love 'em Still can't quite get the Columbian though... maybe next week

What techniques do people think are "fundamental" and what are "not to worry about if you're happy to get to a certain level, stay there, and just enjoy it"?

Fundamental - hand hold (more grippers tonight ), some awareness of frame/tension, emphasis on lead/follow techniques (slap backleaders - well, maybe not literally - they make it more difficult for the leads to learn 'how to' properly), etiquette

Nice to have - ???

[Chef]

Originally Posted by Russell Saxby

Just maybe not at Hipsters, unless of course Newkid you are lucky enough to pass the suggested audition

Russell

It also rather assumes that I would pass the audition, doesn't it. I am not totally confident that I would.

Newkid may be a beginner but I have often stated here that I have a lot of time for beginners that want to learn. I have little patience with beginners that don't want to learn - they are a waste of the investment of my time and theirs. Some people are a joy to dance with on their very first night not because of all the stuff that they have learnt but because of their awareness of their own body - it is difficult to explain but they just seem to have the "potential". Others you can just tell they will never get "it". The vast majority fall somewhere between.

I would like to dance with Newkid not because of her ability now but what I feel sure she could become. Newkid is not prepared to just go with the flow and accept things as they are. An instinctive feel that something is not right and I am not just going to let it lie - I am going to apply my mind, find the answers and do it right. Newkid is receptive to learning and as such any encounter would not be wasted effort.

When I first danced with Yuko she told me she had only been dancing for 3 months. I knew at once that she would be performing within the year. She had the body awareness, posture, the attitude to work that meant you just knew she would be a dancer of the highest ability in a frightenly short time.

I know some people that have been dancing 3 times a week for the last 9 years and they are still not even as good as Yuko was at 3 months. Basically it comes down to attitude. Something that I find interesting is looking at the women (or men) that are standing out of the line up. Some just stand there immobile. But some will practice things on their own, mentally rehearsing things they are having trouble with and perfecting the movement and flow in their own mind. Sometimes they will find a quiet spot and work on a hand or leg movement to get it right. For them nearly right is not good enough. They seek out teachers and take on board what has been said.

This is the attitude that I see here in Newkid.

If there is ever an audition to get membership of a dance club then I am sure that someone like Newkid will put the work in and pass first time. For them nearly there isn't good enough. Completely right is.

A determination to do well is to be applauded. It certainly is by me.

[LMC]

*makes mental note to avoid Chef like the plague because he's going to be sadly disappointed*

Seriously, thanks again - look forward to dancing with you and getting some feedback on reality rather than my perceptions of things

Originally Posted by Chef

When I first danced with Yuko she told me she had only been dancing for 3 months. I knew at once that she would be performing within the year. She had the body awareness, posture, the attitude to work that meant you just knew she would be a dancer of the highest ability in a frightenly short time.

I know some people that have been dancing 3 times a week for the last 9 years and they are still not even as good as Yuko was at 3 months. Basically it comes down to attitude. Something that I find interesting is looking at the women (or men) that are standing out of the line up. Some just stand there immobile. But some will practice things on their own, mentally rehearsing things they are having trouble with and perfecting the movement and flow in their own mind. Sometimes they will find a quiet spot and work on a hand or leg movement to get it right. For them nearly right is not good enough. They seek out teachers and take on board what has been said.

This is the attitude that I see here in Newkid.

Attitude maybe, ability? well, don't think I'm going to be performing within a year! My current ambition is to get into round 2 of a DWAS

Hmmm, not sure I 'practise' to that level when I'm stood out either - I'm usually either chatting or watching! But that has given me pause for thought as I reckon that I'm getting more inclined to 'practise' without worrying so much about what watchers might think (they're probably watching the floor more than me anyway)... sharing/teaching a 'lady steal' move last night was fun - Icey: now you know that one too, let's have a competition on Friday - how many guys can we catch out?

[Icey]

Originally Posted by NewKid

sharing/teaching a 'lady steal' move last night was fun - Icey: now you know that one too, let's have a competition on Friday - how many guys can we catch out?

I'm saving it for a certain non-forumite should he ever deign to dance with me again! I'll show him!!!

Re: The learning thread, I've only been brave enough to tell guys that they are crushing my fingers and that they're hurting me, maybe brave isn't quite the word I'm looking for but 9 times out of 10 they just look at me in total amazement and then carry on gripping my hand like a vice. I'm viewing it as the 1 out of 10 that does take it on board is better than none.