Do you say you're a beginner and why?

Ghost · 17th-November-2005, 11:19 PM

I've noticed quite a bit of variety in whether ladies say how experienced they are at dancing and what moves they expect to be led. I don't think there's necessarily a right answer to this, although obviously "I'm a beginner", "This is my first lesson" and "Do you mind if we just do the moves from the beginners class" are certainly helpful.

As a beginning lead, I announced I was a beginner for probably the first six dances for the first couple of weeks, but kept getting told by the ladies that they didn't care. I figured it was fairly obvious to anyone being led by me that I was a beginner (still at the "where does my left hand go now?"

stage.) And as I was leading it was less of a problem. Hopefully I didn't annoy anyone who really didn't want to dance with a beginner and was deceived into thinking I knew what I was doing.

I've had beginners insist that I only dance the moves that were in the beginner class - which is not unreasonable. It's just that they didn't tell me they were beginners or that they wanted to only dance those moves until 30 secs into the dance

; I'm not great at remembering what the moves taught actually were at the best of times, let alone part-way through a dance "Now I know there was a right handed move, was it this one? No, how about this? Ok good, now what goes with that? Um how about ..."

I ended up dancing all the beginners moves consecutively with one lady because I just couldn't remember the starting 4. I read somewhere that one of the classes has a blackboard with that evening's moves on - this would make my life sooo much easier.

I'm also not great at remembering who the beginners are which doesn't help. If someone's unfamiliar to me and they're a good follow should I just dance the 4 beginners moves? Or is it down to me say "Are you an Intermediate?" or something similar? I generally start off with simple moves and progress from there depending on how easily they follow, but this doesn't work for the above case. It's worth noting that the ladies in question can follow the other moves, they just don't want to - possibly they want to practice them to reinforce them?

I'm interested in seeing different people's perspectives on this.

Take care,
Christopher

TiggsTours · 18th-November-2005, 09:52 AM

I think this is different, depending on whether the said person is leading of following. As a beginner follower, if they are dancing with someone who is good at dancing with beginners (not necessarily a "good" dancer) then it should be possible to lead them into far more than they have actually learnt, but then, it would be unreasonable to expect a beginner follower (no matter how good they are) to be able to follow everything. I don't think a follower should have to explain they are a beginner, but it could help the leader to know how advanced a move they can attempt with them.

As for a beginner leader, as a follower, I wouldn't be bothered either way if they told me they were a beginner or not, as it would become aparant as soon as they started dancing anyway, so no real need to say anything. The only reason I can see that anyone would want a beginner lead to tell them they are a beginner, is so that they can make some excuse to get out of dancing with them, which I think is just wrong! We were all beginners once, and if everyone had this attitude, not many of us would still be dancing! So no, I see absolutely no reason for a leader to explain that they are a beginner at all.

I guess the only thing is that, as with learner drivers, people may have a little more patience. How many times have you been stuck behind someone in traffic, holding everyone up, getting irate, just to catch up and say "Oh, its OK, they're a learner".

**El Salsero Gringo** · 18th-November-2005, 10:00 AM

In a salsa club, I have explained to partners that I'm inexperienced at Salsa. The point being that it means I can explain to my partner that if she has something constructive to tell or show me about the way I'm dancing I'd be pleased to hear it and I won't be offended.

TiggsTours · 18th-November-2005, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

In a salsa club, I have explained to partners that I'm inexperienced at Salsa. The point being that it means I can explain to my partner that if she has something constructive to tell or show me about the way I'm dancing I'd be pleased to hear it and I won't be offended.

Ah, now this is a different situation, and I agree completely! When you can dance, but are new to a style, then I think it is important to explain you are are a beginner (I do when I'm doing Lindy) or else your partner just doesn't understand why you can obviously dance, but can't do something that to them is just basic. If you explain that you can dance but are new to this style then it does indeed tell them that you are open to constructive criticism, and would welcome their help, rather than have them walk off to their friends and say "don't dance with him/her, he/she might look alright but he/she hasn't got a clue what their doing!"

tsh · 18th-November-2005, 11:15 AM

What's the protocol with explaining to followers in the intermediate class that you'd rather be leading someone who's only done one class?

The only time I get thrown is with a good beginner who is following all of my basic moves perfectly, so I assume she is more experienced than she really is - and then the more signally moves (e.g. pretzl, whirlitzer) go wrong.

More likely, it is with the more experienced followers who I end up leading things that they don't follow!

Sean

**under par** · 18th-November-2005, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

In a salsa club, I have explained to partners that I'm inexperienced at Salsa. The point being that it means I can explain to my partner that if she has something constructive to tell or show me about the way I'm dancing I'd be pleased to hear it and I won't be offended.

Strange point of view.

Does the reverse logic work then?

I'm experienced at salsa. The point being that it means I can explain to my partner that if she has something constructive to tell or show me about the way I'm dancing I'd not be pleased to hear it and I will be offended.

Ghost · 18th-November-2005, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost

I've had beginners insist that I only dance the moves that were in the beginner class - which is not unreasonable. It's just that they didn't tell me they were beginners or that they wanted to only dance those moves until 30 secs into the dance

I think the logic goes something like this...
(From the followers viewpoint) I'm new to Ceroc - they taught me 4 moves in the beginners class. I then went through them in freestyle (because of the whole "And now you're in freestyle bit" if nothing else). I then did the beginners refresher class on the same moves. Now it's the final freestyle, so I again should be dancing the same moves. The teacher asked anyone who's new to put their hand up during the class, so obviously all the regular dancers know I'm a beginner. Plus, I'm just starting so they should know I'm new here. It's been a great evening, I'll have go at the second freestyle. What the blazes is this idiot doing?

I could be wrong. Interested to know though.

Take care,
Christopher

TheTramp · 18th-November-2005, 12:17 PM

**under par** · 18th-November-2005, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTramp

No you cannot still be using that line.

Ghost · 18th-November-2005, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsh

What's the protocol with explaining to followers in the intermediate class that you'd rather be leading someone who's only done one class?

Sorry, it's obviously coherent English, but I can't get my head around what you're asking

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsh

The only time I get thrown is with a good beginner who is following all of my basic moves perfectly, so I assume she is more experienced than she really is - and then the more signally moves (e.g. pretzl, whirlitzer) go wrong.

More likely, it is with the more experienced followers who I end up leading things that they don't follow!

Sean

3 ways out of this.

1 lead a neckbreak. The signal makes no sense to a beginner, but it's easy enough to recover from if she ignores it or high 5s you. It's also a good confirmation if she does understand it that's she's an intermediate (or so good a follower that she might as well be

).

2 Ask mid-dance. This isn't foolproof however.

and my personal favourite..
3 Lead without signals - see the "Hand signals a thing of the past ? " thread by stewart38

Hope that helps,
Christopher

TheTramp · 18th-November-2005, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by under par

No you cannot still be using that line.

Who? Me??

LMC · 18th-November-2005, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost

I think the logic goes something like this...
(From the followers viewpoint) ... (stuff, it's just up there ^^^)

I'm have the double disadvantage of being both a beginner lead AND a woman.

But even I will say (gently) "relax and let me lead" to someone who is 'fighting' me or backleading to the extent that it's throwing us off rhythm - adding "I need to learn to lead properly" if it's a more experienced follower (i.e. tactfully putting the 'fault' on me, a) 'cos I don't care and b) because as a beginner lead it may well be me at fault not being sufficiently clear or positive ). Logically, I'm providing feedback for *their* benefit - it will make them more pleasant to dance with for other people as well as for me, and they will get asked for more (repeat) dances and have a better time.

It's too easy to get over-sensitive about these things sometimes.

WittyBird · 18th-November-2005, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LMC

I'm have the double disadvantage of being both a beginner lead AND a woman.

But even I will say (gently) "relax and let me lead" to someone who is 'fighting' me or backleading to the extent that it's throwing us off rhythm - adding "I need to learn to lead properly" if it's a more experienced follower (i.e. tactfully putting the 'fault' on me, a) 'cos I don't care and b) because as a beginner lead it may well be me at fault not being sufficiently clear or positive ). Logically, I'm providing feedback for *their* benefit - it will make them more pleasant to dance with for other people as well as for me, and they will get asked for more (repeat) dances and have a better time.

It's too easy to get over-sensitive about these things sometimes.

you were doing really well at Finchley on Monday night

MartinHarper · 18th-November-2005, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by under par

Does the reverse logic work then?

I'm experienced at salsa. The point being that it means I can explain to my partner that if she has something constructive to tell or show me about the way I'm dancing I'd not be pleased to hear it and I will be offended.

Sounds like lots of experienced dancers. Hence all the fuss over unsolicited negative feedback.

LMC · 18th-November-2005, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wittybird

you were doing really well at Finchley on Monday night

The cheque is in the post.

Thanks

I think what tsh is trying to say is that some intermediate followers are shocking for 'backleading'/anticipating because (unlike first-timers) they know the moves. Personally, I try to be easily led

Ghost · 18th-November-2005, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LMC

I'm have the double disadvantage of being both a beginner lead AND a woman.

You might want to edit this slightly

Quote:

Originally Posted by LMC

But even I will say (gently) "relax and let me lead" to someone who is 'fighting' me or backleading to the extent that it's throwing us off rhythm - adding "I need to learn to lead properly" if it's a more experienced follower (i.e. tactfully putting the 'fault' on me, a) 'cos I don't care and b) because as a beginner lead it may well be me at fault not being sufficiently clear or positive ). Logically, I'm providing feedback for *their* benefit - it will make them more pleasant to dance with for other people as well as for me, and they will get asked for more (repeat) dances and have a better time.

Nice tips. I apologise to them for not being able to remember what the moves were. Happy to make beginners (or anyone else) feel ar ease.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LMC

It's too easy to get over-sensitive about these things sometimes.

Ah, but I'm a sensitive soul

The thread is more curiousity on my part. Interested in seeing different viewpoints. I actually feel that there's nothing wrong with the mindset I described. Quite happy to accomodate it. I'm also curious as to how beginner followers view learning Ceroc? Is it about learning moves or learning to follow?
Probably lots of different answers

Take care,
Christopher

Ghost · 18th-November-2005, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Sounds like lots of experienced dancers. Hence all the fuss over unsolicited negative feedback.

Ok, I give up. Is this deliberate humour or just a freudian slip?

Take care,
Christopher

**ducasi** · 18th-November-2005, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost

Ok, I give up. Is this deliberate humour or just a freudian slip?

I give up too... Where's the humour or slip?

Ghost · 18th-November-2005, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LMC

I think what tsh is trying to say is that some intermediate followers are shocking for 'backleading'/anticipating because (unlike first-timers) they know the moves. Personally, I try to be easily led

Ah thanks....

Short answer is DON'T

or at least first figure out who you're gonna dance with when she stalks off in a huff

Personally I like LMC's approach. There's threads discussing giving feedback and from memory there wasn't really a consensus. Some people like it, some don't and you've no way of knowing ahead of time. "Tap-dancing on minefields" someone once put it

Take care,
Christopher

17th-November-2005, 11:19 PM	#1 (permalink)
Ghost Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Astral Posts: 3,162 Status: No Status Rep Power: 2 Rep.: 1175	Do you say you're a beginner and why? I've noticed quite a bit of variety in whether ladies say how experienced they are at dancing and what moves they expect to be led. I don't think there's necessarily a right answer to this, although obviously "I'm a beginner", "This is my first lesson" and "Do you mind if we just do the moves from the beginners class" are certainly helpful. As a beginning lead, I announced I was a beginner for probably the first six dances for the first couple of weeks, but kept getting told by the ladies that they didn't care. I figured it was fairly obvious to anyone being led by me that I was a beginner (still at the "where does my left hand go now?" stage.) And as I was leading it was less of a problem. Hopefully I didn't annoy anyone who really didn't want to dance with a beginner and was deceived into thinking I knew what I was doing. I've had beginners insist that I only dance the moves that were in the beginner class - which is not unreasonable. It's just that they didn't tell me they were beginners or that they wanted to only dance those moves until 30 secs into the dance ; I'm not great at remembering what the moves taught actually were at the best of times, let alone part-way through a dance "Now I know there was a right handed move, was it this one? No, how about this? Ok good, now what goes with that? Um how about ..." I ended up dancing all the beginners moves consecutively with one lady because I just couldn't remember the starting 4. I read somewhere that one of the classes has a blackboard with that evening's moves on - this would make my life sooo much easier. I'm also not great at remembering who the beginners are which doesn't help. If someone's unfamiliar to me and they're a good follow should I just dance the 4 beginners moves? Or is it down to me say "Are you an Intermediate?" or something similar? I generally start off with simple moves and progress from there depending on how easily they follow, but this doesn't work for the above case. It's worth noting that the ladies in question can follow the other moves, they just don't want to - possibly they want to practice them to reinforce them? I'm interested in seeing different people's perspectives on this. Take care, Christopher

18th-November-2005, 09:52 AM	#2 (permalink)
TiggsTours Registered User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Shepherds Bush Posts: 1,790 Status: No Status Rep Power: 0 Rep.: 872	Re: Do you say you're a beginner and why? I think this is different, depending on whether the said person is leading of following. As a beginner follower, if they are dancing with someone who is good at dancing with beginners (not necessarily a "good" dancer) then it should be possible to lead them into far more than they have actually learnt, but then, it would be unreasonable to expect a beginner follower (no matter how good they are) to be able to follow everything. I don't think a follower should have to explain they are a beginner, but it could help the leader to know how advanced a move they can attempt with them. As for a beginner leader, as a follower, I wouldn't be bothered either way if they told me they were a beginner or not, as it would become aparant as soon as they started dancing anyway, so no real need to say anything. The only reason I can see that anyone would want a beginner lead to tell them they are a beginner, is so that they can make some excuse to get out of dancing with them, which I think is just wrong! We were all beginners once, and if everyone had this attitude, not many of us would still be dancing! So no, I see absolutely no reason for a leader to explain that they are a beginner at all. I guess the only thing is that, as with learner drivers, people may have a little more patience. How many times have you been stuck behind someone in traffic, holding everyone up, getting irate, just to catch up and say "Oh, its OK, they're a learner".

18th-November-2005, 10:00 AM	#3 (permalink)
El Salsero Gringo Ceroc Teacher Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London Posts: 4,881 Status: No Status Rep Power: 4 Rep.: 2374	Re: Do you say you're a beginner and why? In a salsa club, I have explained to partners that I'm inexperienced at Salsa. The point being that it means I can explain to my partner that if she has something constructive to tell or show me about the way I'm dancing I'd be pleased to hear it and I won't be offended.

18th-November-2005, 11:15 AM	#5 (permalink)
tsh Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: North Hertfordshir Posts: 641 Status: waiting for ECLIPSE Rep Power: 3 Rep.: 186	Re: Do you say you're a beginner and why? What's the protocol with explaining to followers in the intermediate class that you'd rather be leading someone who's only done one class? The only time I get thrown is with a good beginner who is following all of my basic moves perfectly, so I assume she is more experienced than she really is - and then the more signally moves (e.g. pretzl, whirlitzer) go wrong. More likely, it is with the more experienced followers who I end up leading things that they don't follow! Sean

18th-November-2005, 12:17 PM	#8 (permalink)
TheTramp The Forum Legend Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Dundee, Scotland Posts: 10,507 Status: No Status Rep Power: 6 Rep.: 1723	Re: Do you say you're a beginner and why?

18th-November-2005, 12:57 PM	#20 (permalink)
Ghost Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Astral Posts: 3,162 Status: No Status Rep Power: 2 Rep.: 1175