Why do we teach the Catapult?

[Gus]

Given that the beginner moves are taught as the foundation for more advanced moves, why do we teach the catapult? I was thinking the move through the other day, in particular the spin out. I can't think of another move where you would draw the famous "horizontal semi circle at waist level letting go" .... nor where you would use the ladies outside hand to pull across her body to do a non-assisted spin. Can anybody come up with a move/combo that the catapult spin supports? I always feel we should teach the guys the variation where they swop hands to use the ladies right arm.

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Gus

Can anybody come up with a move/combo that the catapult spin supports?

Two I lead occasionally.

Catapul gather-up thingy:
Catapult start. Catapult exit spin, keeping hold of girl's left hand in boy's left, gathering it onto her waist. Girl only spins 1.25 turns, rather than the normal 1.5.
Various ways to continue from there.

Wurlizer dummy-thingy move:
Lead a wurlitzer. Instead of flick-spinning the girl to her left, block and spin her back to her right.

There's the ever-unpopular repeating catapult.

Most of the "here's my back" moves, such as the shoulder drop, have a catapult style exit, where the man offers both hands behind his back, rather than just one.

[TiggsTours]

There are lots of variations on the catapult, if you haven't learnt the basics, how do you ever learn the variations? More to the point, why is the whirlitzer no longer taught as a beginners move? The basics of just getting the lady to do a 45 degree turn, and block it, is important in many intermediate moves, this basic should be taught at beginners, as should the pretzel, offering your hand behind you back for the lady is a beginning of many intermediate moves. I understand that the pretzel is quite difficult, why not the good old Nigel clicks, that's easier, with the same basics. And while we're on the subject, the corkscrew, or screwdriver, again, teaches the basic that leads on to so many intermediate variations!

What is needed is an intermediary class, that teaches the basic leads & follow that the beginners class doesn't, before then going on to intermediate.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by TiggsTours

What is needed is an intermediary class, that teaches the basic leads & follow that the beginners class doesn't, before then going on to intermediate.

Yeah, but how harsh would that be?

We sucker them in, saying that learning to dance is easy... what are we gonna do, tell them it was a lie before letting them into the intermediates?

Of course not. So we perpetuate the lie, and let the intermediates think they're good, no matter how many bad habits they've acquired.

When I first started going to Ceroc classes regularly, it was a great mystery to me, why there was beginners, that you'd do for 6 weeks or maybe a bit more...

... and then intermediates....

.... forever

It's not really a mystery any more.

[Lou]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Most of the "here's my back" moves, such as the shoulder drop, have a catapult style exit, where the man offers both hands behind his back, rather than just one.

Also, putting in a catapult is a nice alternative to just sticking a Return on the end of every move. And, as Returns are apparently evil™, that's probably a good concept to teach your Beginners.

[Anna]

Why should we teach catapults?

Because they're fun spinning is fun! Woot woot for spinning!

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

Yeah, but how harsh would that be?

We sucker them in, saying that learning to dance is easy... what are we gonna do, tell them it was a lie before letting them into the intermediates?

Of course not. So we perpetuate the lie, and let the intermediates think they're good, no matter how many bad habits they've acquired.

The problem is that telling people they've got a bad habit and curing them of it means a lot of work for you and the possibility that your dancer will stop coming because the 'easy' dance just got harder - and maybe, when you say 'bad habit' they hear 'bad dancer'.

So why don't Ceroc teach more technique and correct those obvious bad habits? As I said above, people might think the dance isn't as easy as advertised and stop coming - and if they stop coming Ceroc don't get their money*

Back on track, I think we teach the catapult as a beginners move because we were taught it as a beginners move. I think the catapult causes the development of a bobbing bad habit as many guys seem to do a style free bob at the point they take up the tension when they have a 2 handed hold and the lady is behind them. The way Nigel tells us to teach the catapult avoids this as he recommends we hold our left hand out to the side and draw the lady towards it.

Breaking the semi-circle release thing down even more, it could be that we're teaching the lady to follow her hand by turning her through 180 degrees and then we're doing the frisbee thing just like we do in the whurlitzer etc.

[Heather]

Originally Posted by Anna

Why should we teach catapults?

Because they're fun spinning is fun! Woot woot for spinning!

The catapult is my FAVOURITE move ! Sadly not too many people do it!


Heather,
xx

[BobbyA]

I do this move.. tho i try and vary the ending sometimes.. I do it at least once or twice a dance.

Either go from a catapult straight into a sway (as the lady is behind you.. instead of offering the other hand behind.. Just turn yourself and go straight into a sway).

The other move i do is as the woman is coming out of the catapult, i keep hold of the left hand (still allowing to spin out).. then take them into that move where you hold them close and walk around (I dunno if i can be a bit more vague :P :P).

[Stuart M]

Originally Posted by Gus

Given that the beginner moves are taught as the foundation for more advanced moves, why do we teach the catapult?

I think it's so the followers get to check some things. Butt that could be wrong.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally Posted by Stuart M

I think it's so the followers get to check some things. Butt that could be wrong.

You're much funnier when you dont post

[Gus]

Originally Posted by TiggsTours

There are lots of variations on the catapult, if you haven't learnt the basics, how do you ever learn the variations?

Again I appear not to have got my piont across. The key point I was making was the spin at the end ... it seems to contracdict logic in that the man is using an odd technique to spin the lass (used elsewhere?) and the lady is potentialy being pulled away form her centre of gravity. In normal combat I feel far better using the adapted 'ammercian spin' (?) verison. THATS what I was referring to.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Gus

Again I appear not to have got my piont across. The key point I was making was the spin at the end ... it seems to contracdict logic in that the man is using an odd technique to spin the lass (used elsewhere?) and the lady is potentialy being pulled away form her centre of gravity. In normal combat I feel far better using the adapted 'ammercian spin' (?) verison. THATS what I was referring to.

If the question is "Why teach the catapult as a beginner's move?", then I agree, it's not partiucularly helpful for learning the basics. On the other hand, it looks (from a beginner's point of view) very impressive, so it may be a marketing decision more than a teaching one.

In fact, I don't think the Catapult used to be taught as a beginner's move, did it, ages ago?

If the question is "Why teach the catapult at all?" - well, why teach any move? It's fun, it's got a lot of interesting components which can be split down and used separately, it has a lot of variations, etc.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by Gus

Again I appear not to have got my piont across.

Always fun that I'll have a go, apologies if I've misunderstood.

Originally Posted by Gus

The key point I was making was the spin at the end ... it seems to contracdict logic in that the man is using an odd technique to spin the lass (used elsewhere?) and the lady is potentialy being pulled away form her centre of gravity.

Ok I don't know if this is the reason but...

Obviously some ladies have trouble learning to spin. Those that do seem to figure out that they can do the catapult exit
a) As slow as they want - they can actually just walk around if you want
b) by kinda holding on with their left hand and swapping straight to their right as they come round, the balance is easier. Once they get the hang of it, they can drop this if they want.

So I would go with "it's a teaching aid for ladies learning spins."

Originally Posted by Gus

In normal combat

My kind of dancing

Take care,
Christopher

[Andreas]

If you don't let go you could also


- go straight into 'Flamenco Walks' (kinda circular walks around each other).
- do a mirrored sway back
- do a mirrored Hanger
- do a slam stop

.
.
.

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Gus

the spin at the end ... it seems to contracdict logic in that the man is using an odd technique to spin the lass (used elsewhere?) and the lady is potentially being pulled away from her centre of gravity

Odd technique? I move her left hand in the direction I want her to spin, and let go. Seems standard to me. What am I missing?
I don't understand the comment about pulling her away from her centre of gravity, either. It's possible to pull the lady off-balance in pretty much any spin, surely?

[Yogi_Bear]

I never lead a catapault any more - I dislike the move. The only way I would want to do it would be to begin from a left to right hold and change to right to righ as my partner passes me, but even then I can't bring myself to go into that move. Must be something to do with preferring to face toward my partner than to face away.

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Odd technique? I move her left hand in the direction I want her to spin, and let go. Seems standard to me. What am I missing?
I don't understand the comment about pulling her away from her centre of gravity, either. It's possible to pull the lady off-balance in pretty much any spin, surely?

I'm always really bad at visualising moves and what happens in them, but I think the point Gus is making is that spinning her by the left hand is somewhat unnatural - if I just think about a woman coming round that side and being spun, I would have a strong preference for using her right hand.

In particular, if the woman is moving in a certain direction, a natural way to turn her is to provide a "brake" on one side. In the catapult, you do the opposite and "accelerate" the far side, which is trickier.

[TiggsTours]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

Yeah, but how harsh would that be?

We sucker them in, saying that learning to dance is easy... what are we gonna do, tell them it was a lie before letting them into the intermediates?

Of course not. So we perpetuate the lie, and let the intermediates think they're good, no matter how many bad habits they've acquired.

When I first started going to Ceroc classes regularly, it was a great mystery to me, why there was beginners, that you'd do for 6 weeks or maybe a bit more...

... and then intermediates....

.... forever

It's not really a mystery any more.

Actually, is something that I get asked for constantly when I'm taxiing, and its a class that we offer from time to time at Ashtons, when we have enough crew on, and that Asif has been running at Twickenham for about 3 years now, and has always been extremely popular.

[TiggsTours]

Originally Posted by Gus

Again I appear not to have got my piont across. The key point I was making was the spin at the end ... it seems to contracdict logic in that the man is using an odd technique to spin the lass (used elsewhere?) and the lady is potentialy being pulled away form her centre of gravity. In normal combat I feel far better using the adapted 'ammercian spin' (?) verison. THATS what I was referring to.

Not when done properly, which is why it is important to teach it before people progress to intermediate.